Sleeving, grommets and other lazy faults

[grimysparks80]

Im getting really sick of going to jobs that have been done in the last few years where the electrician hasnt used sleeving, grommets ect. Im finding it very rare for electricians to bother with this stuff.

Ive spent the last couple of months going round putting right and checking jobs done by other sparks and most of them have needed sleeving done on them.

A lot of these jobs were done perfectly well apart from this one thing.

I know its only minor but when im doing anything with these jobs i have to disconnect all the cables and sleeve them up. It really irritates me. Ive spoken to plenty of sparks who I would consider to be better than me generally in terms of knowledge or skill, buit they refuse to use sleeving as they dont see the point.

Does anyone else find this is widespread?

How do you guys feel about sleeving cables?

 

[Hawk81]

Are you talking about earth slieving on t&e or brown/red slieving at light switches? I always use earth slieving as for at switches I always use twin brown so no need.

 

[grimysparks80]

Brown and blue sleeving. Im working for a heating company so a lot of control circuits, multicore flexs with unsleeved blues, blacks, greys, yellows and sometimes earths used as live conductors. any old colour used for neutrals without blue sleeving. I also often see sockets without earth sleeving. Just seems to be a general laziness in the domestic sector with stuff like this.

 

[PC Electrics]

Certainly on older installations there is a lack of red sleeving on black switch wires. It is the usual cause of diy confusion when trying to fit a new light and it blows the fuse every time they switch it on.

I can't say that I've noticed a lack of sleeving on newer installs, but I can understand the mechanism which leads to it being left off, especially in domestic. The pressure to reduce prices for new installs is extreme and a simple way to cut a small amount of labour out of the job is to leave off sleeving.

As for sparks "not seeing the point", well all I can say is they very unproffessional. The "point" is that it is required by the regulations - it's as simple as that. If they've left it off, they can't sign off to BS7671, or if they do they've made a false statement. Quite possibly these are the same sparks who ignore the advise about which core to use as neutral in a 3c&e either because they think it doesn't matter, believe they know better, haven't got the brain power to keep up with changes (we've always done it that way) or just plain ignorant.

Looking at the "bigger picture", why do the regs require it. Safety. Conductors need to be identified so they can be worked on safely.

 

[grimysparks80]

Ive worked as far north as carlise and newcastle and as far south as maidstone and ive seen it all over.

At my old company I tried to make an issue out of it but the Q.S. just said "who will ever know" and "If you dont know what youre looking at you shouldnt be poking around in there anyway". They said the same thing about Grommets and then we almost got kicked off a contract for not using them. We spent 2 weeks going round putting grommets in sockets where theyd been missed off.

I think it annoys me so much because it is such a minor thing.

If I go to replace a faulty timer, what should be a 2 minute job takes an hour as I have to disconnect everything and sleeve it up. Grrrrrrrr.

 

[spark 68]

I always sleeve the CPC, but sometimes use (coloured)marker tapes for the SL's rather than disconnect everything, if Iam installing a new circuit then I use the coloured sleeves, and I always use grommits, sometimes I will retrofit grommits where possible,

 

[HandySparks]

Quite possibly these are the same sparks who ignore the advise about which core to use as neutral in a 3c&e

Hi, I quite agree about the need to properly identify the cores but exactly what is the advice in this case and where does it come from?

 

[Adam W]

I must confess in the past I have been a bit slack about sleeving cores in a 2 way configuration, ie brown sleeving over the black and grey as they are all live or switched live and all phase colours anyway. Same with switched/emergency live.
SWA on the other hand is a different kettle of fish. Considering there are some sparks who use the black as neutral and grey as CPC not sleeving is potentially dangerous.

 

[spark 68]

Hi, I quite agree about the need to properly identify the cores but exactly what is the advice in this case and where does it come from?

I don't think it is a Reg as such, it is a recommendation (in one of the GN's) to use the grey as a neutral (sleeved of course) to dis-associate it from the black which was previously used. I think the regs just say you can sleeve any conductor other than the G/Y as this is a protective conductor, and should only be used as such.

 

[Risteard]

it is a recommendation (in one of the GN's)

Not in any Guidance Note. It is an NIC stipulation - nothing to do with the IEE Wiring Regulations.

Although I do agree that failure to protect against abrasion with grommets and failure to correctly identify conductors is a mark of incompetence. I spent the past nine months correcting those faults in almost every installation and it really is heart-breaking stuff. Even had an incidence where a chargehand removed the insulation from cables before putting sleeving on. He said he couldn't see the problem with it when I flagged it up.

Same firm wanted to start using block connectors showed up into the ceiling for downlights because they considered providing enclosures around connections (using Click Flows) to be too expensive. There's just no teaching some people.

 

[GLENNSPARK]

CHAPTER 51....COMMON RULES
514 IDENTIFICATION AND NOTICES P (90)
514.1.2 As far as is reasonably practicable, wiring shall be so arranged or marked that it can be identified for inspection, testing, repair or alteration of the installation.
514.3 IDENTIFICATION OF CONDUCTORS P (91)
514.3.1 Except where identification is not required by regulation 514.6 , cores of cables shall be identified by:
(i) colour as required by regulation 514.4 and/or
(ii) lettering and/or numbering as required by regulation 514.5

514.3.2 Every core of a cable shall be identifiable at its terminations and preferably throughout its length.
Binding and sleeves for identification purposes shall comply with BS3858 where appropriate.

 

[spark 68]

Not in any Guidance Note. It is an NIC stipulation - nothing to do with the IEE Wiring Regulations

That may well be the case, but Iam not registered with the NIC, and don't have any documentation from them, so I must have the guidance from somewhere else.

Iam sure this was mentioned on my 17th ed. course (maybe from a NIC sparky ?), if I get a chance later I will have a look and see where it is.

 

[SirKit Breaker]

Certainly on older installations there is a lack of red sleeving on black switch wires. It is the usual cause of diy confusion when trying to fit a new light and it blows the fuse every time they switch it on.

I can't say that I've noticed a lack of sleeving on newer installs, but I can understand the mechanism which leads to it being left off, especially in domestic. The pressure to reduce prices for new installs is extreme and a simple way to cut a small amount of labour out of the job is to leave off sleeving.

As for sparks "not seeing the point", well all I can say is they very unproffessional. The "point" is that it is required by the regulations - it's as simple as that. If they've left it off, they can't sign off to BS7671, or if they do they've made a false statement. Quite possibly these are the same sparks who ignore the advise about which core to use as neutral in a 3c&e either because they think it doesn't matter, believe they know better, haven't got the brain power to keep up with changes (we've always done it that way) or just plain ignorant.

Looking at the "bigger picture", why do the regs require it. Safety. Conductors need to be identified so they can be worked on safely.

I agree, but i will also argue that missing sleeving is not dangerous, inconvenient yes, non compliant yes, but not unsafe. I am of the opinion that if you open up a lightswitch or something similar, and you are unfamiliar with what you see, then you shouldn't be in there in the first place. It is only dangerous if you dont know what you are doing, and you should never work live in any case, but DIY charlie will always have a go, well equipped with his Neon mains tester.

Cheers...........Howard

 

[PC Electrics]

I'm not NIC either, but I've known this since 17th came out:
in an swa: black for cpc, grey for neutral
in a 3c&e: black for line, grey for neutral (you've got a bare cpc).

I think this is on the ESC site under the guidance section somewhere.

 

[Risteard]

I think this is on the ESC site under the guidance section somewhere.

Proves my point. The ESC and NICEIC are, shall we say, close relatives.