Smart meters- anyone had problems?

[polo1]

Hi all. Anyone had any problems with installations with a smart meter, after removing the (unsealed) DNO fuse & then reinstating the supply i.e. Do they throw a wobbly or just continue to work as normal?
I appreciate that they can issue a supply failure signal to the MOP, but anything else?
Cheers.

 

[Octopus]

I'm sure any "smart" meter can't differentiate between a power cut and the fuse being absent for a few minutes ....

 

[The Ghost]

If you are talking about EDMI they have a cut-off in them if you remove power. That is the HH meters. They are a clever piece of kit. This is an anti-tamper device, I had the same problem and a steep learning curve about meters. The energy provider was most reluctant to come and assist so got the DNO and they performed a meter bypass.

 

[Gavin John Hyde]

When Morris Utility Services fitted a new one at my flat recently on behalf of eon, i asked him a few questions about these things.
He said they would not necessarily know that the fuse has been pulled as different electrical companies have different it systems monitoring the network if at all.
In my case my meter is different to everybody else's as i recently switched supply so have the newest version, so they would also have nothing to compare to in the building apart from mine. I have a isolator so wouldnt need to pull fuse anyway.
That said they can monitor usage remotely which is the purpose and can if they bother to set up the systems for it, isolate your supply in event of non payment and change your per kwh price so you get accurate readings/bill info on the smart display. A hackers dream if they work out the codes/tones... to dial in to them.
In your case if you pull fuse (not that i condone it of course) then depends how long you have it out. personally i would have everything set up with new tails and isolator ready to connect straight up then fuse back in. if done well its matter of minutes. they might put it down to bad signal as they run off gsm phone networks... by the time they bother to contact the meter and maybe ring to check your supply is okay then it would all be back in... believing something has been tampered with and proving who tampered with it are 2 different things.

 

[Des 56]

The simplest solution with these "customer benefit" con machines is to not have one

If I find one installed on a job,I will always have the option of installing a isolator or maybe just a service connector block without disturbing the smart Alec

I suppose I will be leaving the smart meter to carry on doing its smart things un interrupted ?

edit
Vortigern ( sorry Gavin)I am impressed with that direct connection
How on earth did you manage to get them to do that?
Was a lack of supply a health issue ?

 

[The Ghost]

How on earth did you manage to get them to do that

I know, quite miraculous really. The meter company were entirely disinterested in coming out and it was because the meter had switched off. This was a business with no power. The guy from the DNO was sterling. He took offence at the attitude of the energy supplier when he spoke to them as he got the same brush off as me. So he asked his boss if he could bypass and boss said yes. The DNO guy said "We will be charging them a lot for this" a wonderful result for the business and the energy supplier who deserve the highest possible bill! British Gas of course (the supplier) Guess I am just lucky.

 

[The Ghost]

And by the way! Your supplier must supply you with a STARK account when fitting a smart meter upon request. This allows you to access the meter on-line and get all the info from it. Morrisons must allow this to happen. I have a guy who is a meter expert on tap so he told me this which helped enormously with a commercial client who had to give their maximum supply demand. We will have to be on our toes come April 2018 as penalty charges are coming in for HH meter users (mostly commercial) and need to understand the Kva peak demand to advise clients appropriately! The whole issue of smart meters is a dastardly fiendish and thickening plot watch this space!

 

[PEG]

...I was going to write a thesis type post on this...haven't got the will...

So,i will just say...smart-phones,smart-cards,smart-motorways,smart renewable deals,smart meters....

If you want to guarantee,the future disappointment in a thing...just put the word "smart" in front of it.

Any organisation,whatsover,would have a debate on their hands,if their meter had a strop,whilst being disconnected for the reason of emergency or improvement in the safety of an installation,and they whinged.

How many individuals on this forum,have had to either accidentally or deliberately improve or rectify the DNO's equipment,and then cross their fingers and hope no-one knows?

I have had it from the horses mouth,re: a certain DNO,that they fully accept and are content,that competent electricians,perform a good percentage of "improvements",during the course of their work,but for obvious reasons,can neither be thanked or acknowledged.

....Just like finding a full toilet,in an expensive restaurant,and flushing it yourself,as you go

 

[The Ghost]

Well I certainly believe we should keep an eye on the whole issue of smart meters. It is really eye opening what they are capable of. They are effectively PA machines and certainly can "spy" on users habits. They have a cut off mechanism it is pictured on the meter diagrammatically and it is acknowledged by energy suppliers on this forum a couple of weeks ago. Not directly here but a link. If anyone does know anything give it up here. This is going to be an issue as of 2018 and certainly by 2020. What will you say to your client when they ask you what is our Kva, we need to know it and it says the electrical contractor can tell you? I do know the answer now to this. STARK account.

 

[The Ghost]

I know I have shown this pic a few times. However it just beggers belief that the meter installer will connect to this mess, but (as the energy supplier stated) will walk away if they find the meter has been bypassed (pic above). They did not however when they came to fit the meter to the new box. Gift of the blarney stone.

 

[ipf]

I know I have shown this pic a few times. However it just beggers belief that the meter installer will connect to this mess, but (as the energy supplier stated) will walk away if they find the meter has been bypassed (pic above). They did not however when they came to fit the meter to the new box. Gift of the blarney stone.

View attachment 38733

Good job you had a flash on phone camera........what good's that lampholder without a lamp?

 

[ipf]

I've had at least half a dozen of these. Another for the bin.

 

[PEG]

I'm dealing with the above,at present. Out of the three statements,they fail on three of them.

If i have the patience,i will be ringing them again,tomorrow,on behalf of my parents.

Up to date,they have failed categorically,to deliver on three arranged meter fits,and there are two separate compensation payments due,and an alleged investigation...

I have turned round,several meter teams,including one visit,at 8am,with two vans...felt a bit strong-arm,and the lads were sound,but were sent packing.

They are in Offgen territory now,and will be also liable for the rebate,on the increased billing,due to not being able to apply the agreed tariff,on my parents two existing meters.

My two hours of conversation,available through FOI,would make a cracking comedy programme,with at no point,me getting rude,threatening or loud,but at one point in the last two calls,i tell the agent "please don't be offended,as i fully understand,you are merely an employee...but i am now going to go over things,as if i was speaking to my child,when he was 6. He is now 9,and understands the concept and responsibility,of a promise. Do you anticipate,that someone could listen to this conversation,and believe there are any areas,where doubt remains?...So that is yourself,replying "no" to that question,is that correct?...

....Imagine 40+ minutes of that...

I will be back,with latest "new" managers,promise

 

[The Ghost]

for the bin

ah ah ah no no no, the recycling bin

 

[The Ghost]

lampholder without a lamp?

Also without electricity, danger notice issued and removed supply to all circuits.

 

[Spoon]

Below is a bit of info I got from the Department of Energy and Climate Change regarding these smart meters.

We expect the battery life of smart gas meters to be 15 years. (gas meter display only updates every 30 mins there the elec on is every 30 seconds)

Information on a consumer’s electricity and gas consumption is stored on the smart meters. Consumers will be able to access this information via the In Home Display, by securely connecting another device (a Consumer Access Device) to their Home Area Network that allows the smart meter to communicate other devices in the home, or by requesting information from their supplier. The In Home Display, which will be offered to all domestic consumers, will give the consumer near real time information on their electricity use, enabling them to see what energy they are using and how much it is costing

Consumers will have control over who has access to their data, apart from where this is required for billing and other regulated duties. As part of the data access and privacy framework, suppliers will be allowed to access monthly data for billing purposes. Customers may opt out from allowing suppliers to access daily data, or opt in to allow suppliers to access half-hourly data. Suppliers will be required to explain clearly to their customers which data is being used, for which purposes, and what choices the consumer has about this. Thus, if a consumer has opted in to giving the supplier access to half hourly data, then the supplier will be allowed to collect information covering half hourly periods.
Energy UK has published a Data Guide which explains which data will be accessed from the smart meter, for which purposes, and what choices customers have about this: Smart meters | Energy UK - http://www.energy-uk.org.uk/policy/smart-meters.html

 

[polo1]

Thanks for the responses. I've no idea of the make/model of the meter, though it's in domestic premises. I just don't want to end up leaving the customer with no power if the meter locks out or whatever, with possible costs to have it sorted.
Anyone else have practical experience of powering down these bl**dy things?

 

[freddo]

Funny, reading this thread now I've just had a call from my electricity supplier asking if I wanted to replace my smart meter! I told her that I wasn't interested, and she asked if I knew about the benefits of having a smart meter. I told her again that I was not interested and I hadn't changed my mind from the last 2 times I wasn't interested. She didn't try any more after that, the best part was she sounded really pis.sed off. Sadly I've only once been able to make a telemarketer cry. I must try harder, but I often find it difficult not to laugh when I'm wasting their time...

 

[guy@secure]

Well I certainly believe we should keep an eye on the whole issue of smart meters. It is really eye opening what they are capable of. They are effectively PA machines and certainly can "spy" on users habits. They have a cut off mechanism it is pictured on the meter diagrammatically and it is acknowledged by energy suppliers on this forum a couple of weeks ago.

Instead of engaging in tin-foil hat speculation, why don't you just read the SMETS1 technical equipment specification? It tells you exactly what the meters are capable of. There's a similar document for SMETS 2.

I'll even give you a starter

7.1.1.51 Load Switch A component that can close or open (including on receipt of a Command to that effect) to Enable or Disable the flow of electricity to and from the Premises.

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/299395/smets.pdf

 

[The Ghost]

Well thanks @guy@secure for vindicating my "tin-foil hat speculation". If you analyse what was said you have said exactly what I have stated. I have made reference to where information I have discussed is available to look at rather than speculate. If you search on the forum I am sure it should not be too difficult for you to find. I suppose you work for a meter installation company and that would explain your attempt ad hominem attack on the material/author? If you wish to contribute to a conversation I remind you of the requirement to keep it polite and professional if you are able to. Furthermore you may not be aware but there are considerable data protection considerations for these smart meters, now why would that be? I'll give you a starter: Rhetorical question.

 

[ipf]

Hey up, another track.
Maybe they're trying to scare me into it now....
They never wrote about 'not being able to check my meter', only my meter being phased out.

 

[Des 56]

Its not all about what the meters are capable of
The lack of trust in the reasons for gathering that data, the use of the data that is accumulated,it makes me doubt whether it is wise to have them at all

It may also be a gift to the meter operators for a means of disconnection that will surely be misused in many situations

And last but not least,they annoyed many electricians when the meters were sanctioned to be installed without a isolator, a once in a lifetime opportunity to do something that would actually be of benefit was discarded

 

[Des 56]

It looks as though they have gone into threat mode ipf
Maybe they think that they can install a smart meter on the basis of checking and changing a old or knackered one,but they can't

Consumer rights (Which)

Now the official roll-out has started, energy companies have been asked to take 'all reasonable steps' to install smart meters in every home, however you still have the right to refuse a smart meter.

 

[ipf]

It looks as though they have gone into threat mode ipf
Maybe they think that they can install a smart meter on the basis of checking and changing a old or knackered one,but they can't

Consumer rights (Which)

Now the official roll-out has started, energy companies have been asked to take 'all reasonable steps' to install smart meters in every home, however you still have the right to refuse a smart meter.

Those' tin foil hats' won't be much help when the bricks start flying, eh?

 

[guy@secure]

Well thanks @guy@secure for vindicating my "tin-foil hat speculation". If you analyse what was said you have said exactly what I have stated. I have made reference to where information I have discussed is available to look at rather than speculate. If you search on the forum I am sure it should not be too difficult for you to find. I suppose you work for a meter installation company and that would explain your attempt ad hominem attack on the material/author? If you wish to contribute to a conversation I remind you of the requirement to keep it polite and professional if you are able to. Furthermore you may not be aware but there are considerable data protection considerations for these smart meters, now why would that be? I'll give you a starter: Rhetorical question.

I work for neither a MOP or a MAP so I have no position to defend in that respect. I made no judgement about the the links provided, more an observation on the level of knowledge in evidence and some rather far-fetched conclusions e.g. ‘spying on user habits’.

You said earlier in the thread ‘if anybody knows anything give it up’. Had you done a google search you would have found the specification which has only existed since 2014, detailing all the functionality of a smets1 meter. You don’t need a ‘meter expert on tap’ to understand the spec, it’s there in black and white.

You seem concerned that the meters have a remote arm/disarm switch as if this is some terrible, dark secret. As an example, a change of tenancy situation, where a building may be vacant for a period of time might make use of this functionality to disable a supply until required.

And finally, I am only too aware of the data protection implications and security requirements of the field, working as I do in an environment governed by ISO 27001, the government’s Information Security Management standard.

 

[The Ghost]

@guysecure no one said you are making judgements. What I said is that you are making ad hominem attacks. This is the way a lot of people attempt to win an argument by snidely insulting a person in order to denigrate them in the belief that it will weaken the validity of posits put forth by that person.
Personally I find such tactics in discussion extremely reprehensible. Again you could not resist doing the same in your latest missive. Clearly you do have an agenda to defend and I am sure it will be revealed as time goes on. While I get the sense you are here to liberate those peasants who live in ignorance about smart meters, that may not be quite the breeze you are assuming. The points you raise have not convinced me that smart meters are a wonderful thing quite the contrary and I do regard with suspicion the move to install smart meters in homes everywhere by 2020.

You seem concerned that the meters have a remote arm/disarm switch as if this is some terrible, dark secret.

What rational basis do you have for making that statement? And if I am concerned what concern is it of yours?

more an observation on the level of knowledge in evidence and some rather far-fetched conclusions e.g. ‘spying on user habits’.

Again an unnessary attack implying the level of knowledge is far below at least your lofty position and an attempt at inverted commas around "spying on users" despite your assurance that you are only too well aware of the privacy implications. This clearly indicates that you have not the faintest idea of the impact smart meters have on peoples perception of the operation of them.
The information that can be collected from these meters does have profound implications for the clients privacy if you feel for whatever reason that is not the case then fair enough. However point scoring by running down others will not cut any ice with me and I will call you on it. I remind you once again of the requirements of this forum to keep it polite and keep it professional. I would also add to that keep it rational.

 

[Darkwood]

Just my penenth on this and cover a few points raised, I have personally refused a meter upgrade by my supplier on 2 occasions mainly due to them wanting to install a generation 1 meter which in many cases is not compatible with other suppliers if I decide to change supplier, this could see me with additional costs to swap supplier.
The smart meter logging of power outage has been and does get used as evidence of tampering, I know because I had a friend who got caught up in this, he had a new meter fitted when he moved into the house and a year later he rang them because he wanted to change his consumer unit and the electrician needed an engineer to come out and do the change over to the new board... their quote was extortionate for what what a 15min job (About £350) so he went down the path of getting it done himself, it would seem this request had put him on a watchmode and when the meter was powered down it logged time, date and duration, as this didn't tally with any network power problems then the cause of the power down was investigated, subsequently he found himself in court as he would not disclose who withdrew the cutout fuse, in the past the energy companies have had difficulties going to prosecution as it was never easy to prove when a meter lost power.
I am not surprised at all if there is a cutout option in smart meters as this would be of a great advantage, when the supplier wants to stop power been used at the moment it is a costly method of sometimes having to gain forced entry, utilising the police service etc etc and the following legal costs in doing so, if you can simply send a signal to shut down it would take seconds to do. There is also the other advantages like network faults, if you tell the meters to lock out in power down this is of a great advantage to network engineers when the local grid is energised again, it limits existing load when energising and thus helps prevent mains transients that can damage equipment, I wouldn't be surprised if following a power up that a area could effectively be signaled to energise each property with a smart meter in steps as oppose to all at once.

 

[The Ghost]

Is your home’s energy meter spying on you? | Fox News « Stop Smart Meters! (UK) - http://stopsmartmeters.org.uk/is-your-homes-energy-meter-spying-on-you-fox-news/

Is your smart meter spying on you? - https://www.theguardian.com/money/2017/jun/24/smart-meters-spying-collecting-private-data-french-british

Smart meters could be 'spy in the home' - http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/newsbysector/energy/6292809/Smart-meters-could-be-spy-in-the-home.html

The security problems with smart meters - https://conversation.which.co.uk/home-energy/is-my-smart-meter-spying-on-me/
Just a few viewpoints of irrational papers/people who consider the "far fetched" idea of meters spying on people. Baco foil shares must be rocketing, buy!

 

[The Ghost]

Smart Meter energy company fined $390,000 for spying! « Stop Smart Meters! (UK) - http://stopsmartmeters.org.uk/smart-meter-energy-company-fined-390000-for-spying/ and this is a beaut.

 

[Darkwood]

I find the whole smart meter spying argument a bit strange, the same people who actively raise issue and complain about user usage gathering are usually people who probably hold FB accounts, bank accounts, forum memberships, use smart phones, shop on line, use credit cards etc etc .... the list is very long all of which gather and monitor how you use their services and sell such info in some cases and some like FB actually gave out personal info everytime you allow another app' to load onto your FB as you often click on a tab to allow said access, it's strange you don't see them actively raising issue and protesting against these bodies yet have issue with the energy provider for what is in context a minimal intrusion in comparison.

 

[PEG]

Just an update from my previous post,regarding Smart meter carry-on...
They failed again,have started complaint process number three,have promised compensation,and have agreed in principle,to rebate my parents the excess charges,due to failure to comply with contract promise. They said it is not called a rebate,and will only call it a "good will gesture"...i told them they could call it "Doris" as long as it equated to a fair redress.
On at least 3 occasions,i asked them if it was a deliberate company policy,or strategy to make as many major errors,so as to wear folk down...i got no denial.

Point number 2,I have seen the software,demonstrated in front of me,several years ago,regarding the dissemination of real-time streamed data,from a property with both gas and electric smart meters (telemetry enabled)

It was amazing,the information that a computer can glean,and the potential value of that,regarding marketing,of any kind.
Eating patterns,holidays,usage of equipment,work patterns...even the ability to estimate the fitness of an individual,assessed purely on the time it takes to go to and from the bathroom,based on lighting operation

I asked what was the point of that? ...and it's medical sales,lifestyle gear,even assessment by an insurance company,regarding any disability or compensation arrangement.
They know the property location,size,value and room layout,and the programme merely estimates the distance between rooms and times between light operations...that is just the tip of it

My third point,would be to allay any fears regarding the "remote disconnecting" of supply,to a property.
I have spoke to a R&D technician,who has worked for a major utility provider,for the last 22 years.
The major stumbling block (literally) is that the DNO would still have to be present,inside the property,whilst disconnecting.

The reasons for this are obvious,for a sudden loss of power,with internal stairways,medical equipment,stair lifts,pumped waste,connected loads,and about another 20 reasons,make the real remote cut-off,not viable...yet

So cheer up! We are not all extras in Blade Runner...yet

 

[Spoon]

I find the whole smart meter spying argument a bit strange, the same people who actively raise issue and complain about user usage gathering are usually people who probably hold FB accounts, bank accounts, forum memberships, use smart phones, shop on line, use credit cards etc etc .... the list is very long all of which gather and monitor how you use their services and sell such info in some cases and some like FB actually gave out personal info everytime you allow another app' to load onto your FB as you often click on a tab to allow said access, it's strange you don't see them actively raising issue and protesting against these bodies yet have issue with the energy provider for what is in context a minimal intrusion in comparison.

My FB info is not true. My forum info is very limited. I put the wrong DOB on sites I have to give info to. Maybe I'm just a bit paranoid.

 

[Darkwood]

@Spoon - these were just examples and you highlight ones that you actively have control of info given, there are many things out there that know a lot more about you than you would wish shared like Phones, bank cards, home internet usage where every site you visit and everything you do online is logged and stored for years, your personal IP address linked to you and your home also gives many items that connect to the router the ability to gather info like your PS4 or X-Box, when you Wi-Fi your phone to your router all the info of the users phone ID is then linked to your IP, all this is valuable info to the right people and is often shared without you knowing but like I said before, because of a media storm in the USA over smart meter privacy we see a frenzy of groups rising against the use of them to due to some what of a lesser intrusion what most electronic/digital modern tech does and has done for decades.
The only issue I have is where info' can have a negative effect on safety and actually come down to protecting kids from pedo's etc, women from abusive ex's, take FB, if you don't set your security up then anyone can work out things like regular appointments, gyms, swimming clubs, after-school activities etc all of which can lead a not so pleasant persons to target you or your kids when at the most vulnerable.

 

[Spoon]

and even if you set up your security properly....

'All wifi networks' are vulnerable to hacking, security expert discovers - https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2017/oct/16/wpa2-wifi-security-vulnerable-hacking-us-government-warns[/user]

 

[Darkwood]

@Spoon - most of modern lifestyle can be hacked but do you spend your life living in fear and trying to fight the system or do you just deal with it day by day, at the end of the day financially you are protected to a certain extent and it would only be through deliberate actions of your own if you were say fooled by a scam that would leave you out of pocket.... so what if information service has logged that I just watch 7 episodes of this or that or that I just completed Resident evil in VR mode, if that helps the market deliver better TV and Games then who am I to complain.
Other than living like a hermit and dealing in cash only then we are all been monitored and our habits are been logged, we already live in the George Orwell novel '1984' minus the totalitarian socialist system.

 

[sparksburnout]

Well, all I can say is that I must lead a very boring life, because personally I couldn't give a ---- who looks at anything any of my "data" might reveal, because I don't do anything that I wouldn't want revealed to anyone. Personally I am not bothered one jot if any saddo is going to monitor the frequency of light switches going on and off and to be honest I sort of don't get this paranoia about collecting real time leccy usage, it must be better than those dodgy little men who come round spying on me, with their torches, looking round at my interior decoration preferences and poking about "looking for the meter". They don't fool me I know what they are up to...........

 

[Spoon]

Thanks @darkwood .. you make me sound like a right freak..
I know people are collecting data. I know my Nectar card logs what foods I buy and when.. Personally I don't like smart meters. One reason is, the companies will make all the meter reading people redundant and just keep the money. We will see none of it.

 

[sparksburnout]

Thanks @darkwood .. you make me sound like a right freak..
I know people are collecting data. I know my Nectar card logs what foods I buy and when.. Personally I don't like smart meters. One reason is, the companies will make all the meter reading people redundant and just keep the money. We will see none of it.

Good point spoony. I don't use self service checkouts for the same reason, because one day, that's all there might be, just a row of annoying machines beeping at you, and the people you used to actually pass the time of day with sat at home staring out of the window.

 

[sparksburnout]

Oh and by the way I forgot to add, I think some contributors to this thread have forgotten that we are not actually supposed to be pulling cutouts without a bloody good reason, thus depriving the poor old meter of its life blood. I do think DES 56 made a very good point though regarding fitting Isolators.

 

[Darkwood]

Thanks @darkwood .. you make me sound like a right freak..
I know people are collecting data. I know my Nectar card logs what foods I buy and when.. Personally I don't like smart meters. One reason is, the companies will make all the meter reading people redundant and just keep the money. We will see none of it.

Just throwing in my opinion Spoon, not the intention to portray you as some kind of freak , you could wear a tinfoil hat which makes you immune to data harvesting
As Sparks says, it is a good point about putting meter readers out of a job but that was going to happen anyway as technology moves on, meters with remote readout abilities have been around for decades, it's just now you don't need to even go to the address to get the reading as just logging into a computer is all that is required on modern meters and this comes regardless of data harvesting other than the intended reading... technology has a habit of wiping out whole sections of the job market but it also creates new job fronts too.... agree that this is of no comfort to the meter reader doing his job but you cannot just blame smart meters here, you can txt or send online your meter reading at anytime nowadays which again is another wedge in the need for a manual meter reading.