Sockets in bathrooms

[Mike Johnson]

Just seen this thread and thought I would add my t'pennyworth, French regulations say no electrical appliance/socket within Volume 0 & 1 which are the area's encompassing the water and bath, or Volume 2 which extends 600mm beyond that area, however showers are treated slightly differently in that Volume 1 extends 1200mm beyond the shower head unless completely enclosed in which case the inside of the enclosure is Volume 1 and Volume 2 is 600mm beyond this, it then gets a bit complicated where the height of all Volume's are 2250 from the water level in a bath, but 2250mm from finished floor level in a shower room, it is normal practice for washing machine's etc to be located in a Shower/Bathroom all supplied from outside the Volume's as above, but all RCD protected as Regulation requirements to any socket, pull cords for lights and extracts are unusual, normally a standard switch is used.

 

[pirate]

Same in Spain, washing machines in bathrooms very common. My shower room has a socket 300mm from the whb, and 300mm from the bidet, so you can plug stuff in while you sit, so to speak...except when the CU was upgraded the spark took the socket innards out and fitted a blanking plate, helpfully leaving the bits behind for "retro-fit"! The lights are operated via a standard rocker switch just inside the door at the WC...this is common practice. There is a shaver outlet on the lighting pelmet above the WHB, unswitched and fed from the lights, and its terminals were exposed, so could be touched if you were scrabbling for shampoo or whatever on the pelmet top shelf...easily cured with a strip of duct tape...or in my case, a socket blanking plate screwed over the top.

 

[EricMark]

I know in mother's old house it did not comply, the socket was likely only 2 meters from the shower, I really do not see a big problem when the floor is carpeted and one is unlikely to really put anything too close to the shower cubical in the bedroom, it really makes no difference if the socket was the full 3 meters everything in the bedroom would be the same, just a longer lead would be used and so cause more not less danger.

I could see the whole idea of not defining the room as a bedroom with shower and saying any room big enough so you could get 3 meters from the shower then allowed a socket, but in the bedroom the shower went in after the socket.

In the bathroom why would you want a socket? It is a bathroom, why we want to shave in the bathroom I don't know, and why you want to charge things where they can fall into the sink? Yes I use an electric tooth brush, but it is charged in bedroom not bathroom, I will admit cutting my beard there is an advantage having a toilet below me to catch the hair, but never stood in the bath to trim my beard, the hair would not go down the plug hole so would need to gather it up anyway.

I know there are some electric teeth cleaners that are hard wired and use more than the 200 VA a shaver socket can deliver, so can see the requirement for a 500 VA shaver type socket in the bathroom.

I bought in the UK a caravan, which has a shower cubical, and the shower cubical is in an area with toilet and sink and wardrobe which has the consumer unit for whole caravan inside the wardrobe, I looked and thought that's shortly not right, but the door on the shower cubical reaches the ceiling, so it actually passes.

So big question is why not make shower cubicles 2.25 meters high? then you could have a socket in the same room.

 

[littlespark]

A caravan with the consumer unit in an accessible place? are you sure?

Mine is under the front seat... so you've got to move all the cushions, the other soft furnishings, the heavy seat foam and the seat itself, which is too heavy to hold up on its supposedly supporting hinges... just to flick a circuit breaker which are on the top...
Why they couldnt put the board verticle, just behind the little drop down door below the seat.... or in a sensible place.

Light switches accessible from shower in a caravan? Thats ok... they're 12v

 

[EricMark]

Accessible yes, but when it did trip it took me ages to find it, last place I expected to find it, within a foot of the shower.

 

[telectrix]

every landing that you walk away from is good.

 

[LastManOnline]

I don't understand what you would want a 1363 socket in a bathroom for?

Just seen this thread and thought I would add my t'pennyworth, French regulations say no electrical appliance/socket within Volume 0 & 1 which are the area's encompassing the water and bath, or Volume 2 which extends 600mm beyond that area, however showers are treated slightly differently in that Volume 1 extends 1200mm beyond the shower head unless completely enclosed in which case the inside of the enclosure is Volume 1 and Volume 2 is 600mm beyond this, it then gets a bit complicated where the height of all Volume's are 2250 from the water level in a bath, but 2250mm from finished floor level in a shower room, it is normal practice for washing machine's etc to be located in a Shower/Bathroom all supplied from outside the Volume's as above, but all RCD protected as Regulation requirements to any socket, pull cords for lights and extracts are unusual, normally a standard switch is used.

You do wonder! If the French, Italians, Spanish, Germans, Americans, New Zealanders, Australians (to mention just a few) manage to teach their children to behave responsibly with socket outlets in a wet room, could we not do the same here in The British Isles?

 

[pc1966]

You do wonder! If the French, Italians, Spanish, Germans, Americans, New Zealanders, Australians (to mention just a few) manage to teach their children to behave responsibly with socket outlets in a wet room, could we not do the same here in The British Isles?

Err, look at what we have voted for recently?

 

[LastManOnline]

Err, look at what we have voted for recently?

Bathroom's are borderless?

 

[pc1966]

Bathroom's are borderless?

Excellent! We just build a big bathroom at the border in Ireland and trade problems solved, along with any travellers needing relief!

Where is my £10M consultancy payment?

 

[LastManOnline]

Excellent! We just build a big bathroom at the border in Ireland and trade problems solved, along with any travellers needing relief!

Where is my £10M consultancy payment?

On the way ?. But seriously. Sockets in a bathroom are not dangerous providing they are used in the same responsible way all other electrical accessories are. I come from a country with similar regs, as you but when I see 90% of the world successfully using this sockets successfully (and conveniently) in bathrooms I, m incli Ed to say.. "hold on a second, mayby they are on to something here". Would, nt you agree?

 

[pc1966]

Personally I really don't like the idea, having (sadly) enough friends who are muppets when it comes to electrical safety, but some relaxation and adequately isolated products to have USB charge ports would probably avoid a large number of issues with power in bathrooms.

Stuff like hair driers on FCUs don't really worry me, as they can have a flex length & position that avoids bath-use muppetery.

 

[LastManOnline]

Personally I really don't like the idea, having (sadly) enough friends who are muppets when it comes to electrical safety, but some relaxation and adequately isolated products to have USB charge ports would probably avoid a large number of issues with power in bathrooms.

Stuff like hair driers on FCUs don't really worry me, as they can have a flex length & position that avoids bath-use muppetery.

Agreed. I mean in reality you can't legislate for irresponsible behaviour. But when you think about it, millions of us travel abroad every year and don't give a, second thought about using the available electrical accessories in bathrooms. Why not do the same at home?

 

[Mike Johnson]

If the socket is protected with an RCD or better an RCBO why not, not every one is a muppet, but that still doesn't prevent someone taking an extension lead into the bathroom that is not protected.

 

[Dartlec]

With the level of bodgery I often come across I'm surprised I've not seen an ip rated socket fitted in a bathroom yet....never say never.

 

[nicebutdim]

With the level of bodgery I often come across I'm surprised I've not seen an ip rated socket fitted in a bathroom yet....never say never.

Bound to be a video on youtube that fits the bill.

 

[LastManOnline]

If the socket is protected with an RCD or better an RCBO why not we are not all muppets.

Yes. It's a mindset problem again, is, nt it?. I have no doubt in my own that its just a question of time before it changes. One of the main problems is that the socket in the bathroom has been presented as inherently dangerous when it's nothing of the sort. I find it a little ironic that we have no hesitation of stepping under an electric shower, naked, water flowing under our feet and we dont bat an eyelid
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I would not even fit a light switch in a bathroom let alone a socket.

But you are fine standing under an electric shower?
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If the socket is protected with an RCD or better an RCBO why not, not every one is a muppet, but that still doesn't prevent someone taking an extension lead into the bathroom that is not protected.

Mike by the word "volume" do you mean area?

 

[Dartlec]

Bound to be a video on youtube that fits the bill.

Talk of the devil - already been in Codebreakers

Code 2 apparently... Though the colour scheme may be a Code 1.

Looking further, there's a disabled seat in the shower, so this may have been put in to allow an elderly person to receive 'personal care' from a carer. May actually be safer than an extension lead from the hallway - or would be if it wasn't a BG cheapy with clips that will break in 6 months...

 

[Mike Johnson]

Mike by the word "volume" do you mean area?

Don't think I mentioned either.

 

[LastManOnline]

Don't think I mentioned either.

See your post 41.volume mentioned 6 times

 

[pc1966]

But you are fine standing under an electric shower?

Which has been specifically designed for use in a wet area.

Not so someone taking in a mains powered radio, TV, or whatever.

 

[DefyG]

Talk of the devil - already been in Codebreakers

Code 2 apparently... Though the colour scheme may be a Code 1.

Looking further, there's a disabled seat in the shower, so this may have been put in to allow an elderly person to receive 'personal care' from a carer. May actually be safer than an extension lead from the hallway - or would be if it wasn't a BG cheapy with clips that will break in 6 months...

Its possible that if that is a fixed glass partition (>600mm wide) the socket could be outside of Zone 2 but nevertheless it is within 3m of a shower cubicle.

A lot of this speculation about 'future' regs and what is done on the continent is irrelevant as we are (or should be) working to BS7671:2018 in England/UK at the present time!

 

[Mike Johnson]

See your post 41.volume mentioned 6 times

You must work really hard to be such a SA, taking the English language as it is "Zone" could/would refer to a flat plane i.e. M2, "Volume" refers to a cubic area i.e. M3 so volume is more accurate.

 

[LastManOnline]

You must work really hard to be such a SA, taking the English language as it is "Zone" could/would refer to a flat plane i.e. M2, "Volume" refers to a cubic area i.e. M3 so volume is more accurate.

Point taken.?. By the way I have noticed from your posts a worrying trend developing where you are displaying the continental trait of objectivity and pragmatism towards electrical practice. I thought I better tip you off before you return to UK for a holiday?
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Its possible that if that is a fixed glass partition (>600mm wide) the socket could be outside of Zone 2 but nevertheless it is within 3m of a shower cubicle.

A lot of this speculation about 'future' regs and what is done on the continent is irrelevant as we are (or should be) working to BS7671:2018 in England/UK at the present time!

My friend. Appreciate your point. However one of the hallmarks of great British engineering and innovation has been its forward looking and open approach to learning. Been prepared to adapt and twerk is essential for progess

 

[telectrix]

Been prepared to adapt and twerk is essential for progess

so that's why we have trained monkeys fitting smart meters. they adapt and learn, but still get it wrong

https://www.electriciansforums.net/posts/1658748/react?reaction_id=1

 

[LastManOnline]

Which has been specifically designed for use in a wet area.

Not so someone taking in a mains powered radio, TV, or whatever.

There are sockets designed for wet areas. The difference is that in the ROI and the UK we have concluded our citizens can't be trained to use them responsibly. I fundamentally disagree with that assessment
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Been prepared to adapt and twerk is essential for progess

so that's why we have trained monkeys fitting smart meters. they adapt and learn, but still get it wrong

https://www.electriciansforums.net/posts/1658748/react?reaction_id=1

Guys. My sincere apologies. Please read "tweek" for "twerk" and "twit" for "Edmond"

 

[nicebutdim]

There are sockets designed for wet areas. The difference is that in the ROI and the UK we have concluded our citizens can't be trained to use them responsibly. I fundamentally disagree with that assessment

Given how readily many of our citizens wish to apportion blame and seek redress from others for the results of their own stupidity, I don't find it altogether surprising that regulatory bodies seek to minimise the risk of electrocution for the terminally stupid amongst us. As there is no easy method of determining which citizens are reasonably minded and which are plain daft, I guess the one size fits all approach is deemed appropriate.

 

[Mike Johnson]

There was a case in my Local French area recently where a young girl took an extension lead into the bathroom to power her radio, she and her father who tried to save her were both electrocuted in the real meaning of the word, both dead, it seems the house was rented and there where no RCD (DD) fitted to the CU.

 

[DefyG]

My friend. Appreciate your point. However one of the hallmarks of great British engineering and innovation has been its forward looking and open approach to learning. Been prepared to adapt and twerk is essential for progess
[/QUOTE]

I’m certainly not against innovation and innovative ideas but there are ways and means! and implying (especially to our trainees) you condone ‘twerking’ with the regs or installation is a dangerous idea when dealing with electricity and ‘not very bright’ (as also implied) members of the public!
Regulation 133.5 may allow a certain amount of ‘twerking’ (your words) and that’s fine if you can demonstrate greater or equally safe measures to the regs and are prepared to put your name to the certificate, carry on!

 

[pc1966]

The difference is that in the ROI and the UK we have concluded our citizens can't be trained to use them responsibly. I fundamentally disagree with that assessment

The problem with hanging around forums like this is you end up thinking we are "normal" and forget that some of the dumbest suggestions you see here are from folk who know a lot more about electricity that the majority of the population.

 

[Mike Johnson]

In the everlasting words of Manuel "I know nothing"

 

[pc1966]

More generally, there is a very big risk in downgrading a known safety position in the name of convenience.

We all know that some folk will take an extension lead in to a bathroom if they really want power there, and we can't stop them. But it takes more effort than plugging in something to a socket already in a bathroom, and critically for any electrician doing the job, it is clearly a decision by said person against the accepted electrical safety regulation practice.

A change to allow sockets in a bathroom is one that might happen, but it is more of a high-level political decision. Someone at the IET, etc, has to put forward the case that it would be better to society as a whole to allow sockets for convenience, and the risk of additional death/injury is acceptably small in relation to that benefit.

For any of us to put a socket in there would have to be a very good justification that we could present if it came to facing a magistrate at a fatal accident inquiry!

Now hypothetically I would fit a socket for a special case such as the earlier photo showing one in a bathroom for a disabled person. So if a carer came to me and made the point that this person has special needs that really needs the ready supply of power in the converted bathroom, I would probably do something like that - fit an outdoor RCD-protected socket on to an existing RCD-protected ring or dedicated spur.

In this case I could argue that (1) there was a specific justification for fitting it beyond trivial convenience, (2) that it was waterproof style and outside of zone 0/1, and (3) that the dual RCD arrangement would avoid a single point of failure in the protection electronics.

But if it became normalised to have sockets fitted you would get dodgy Dave and similar fitting them to homes without RCD protection, which I suspect are still a significant portion of the UK stock.

 

[pc1966]

Also to add that I really would have to make sure the bath was earthed. Otherwise someone might drop a class II appliance in to the bath and receive a fatal L-N shock if the OCPD fails to clear quickly, and without the RCD noticing anything is wrong.

 

[Mike Johnson]

Ah ha old school still think the majority of baths are metal about the only thing metal on bath's now days is the taps, even the waste's are plastic. No offence meant.

 

[pc1966]

Ah ha old school still think the majority of baths are metal about the only thing metal on bath's now days is the taps, even the waste's are plastic. No offence meant.

That is an issue, I was thinking along the lines of being able to earth the waste outlet as often they have chrome decorative bits, etc, but it is quite possible that will not be practical either.

But it raises an important issue for those who believe that RCD will save you - that works only for a L-E path, not for L-N which a bath that is isolated could well give you.

 

[Mike Johnson]

I recently installed a linear SS shower trap in a sand and cement floor, bonded that and the shower screen and all the copper behind the wall, I don't think bonding the screen was necessary, but what the heck.

 

[EricMark]

Talk of the devil - already been in Codebreakers

Code 2 apparently... Though the colour scheme may be a Code 1.

Looking further, there's a disabled seat in the shower, so this may have been put in to allow an elderly person to receive 'personal care' from a carer. May actually be safer than an extension lead from the hallway - or would be if it wasn't a BG cheapy with clips that will break in 6 months...

I have looked at that, how do you know from that picture if the shower is in the same room as the socket? It is all down the the hight of the shower cubical door and if it reasonably seals at the top. If the door is over 2.25 meters high then it would be permitted.

Don't get me wrong I don't think it should be, but in my mothers house we had a wet room with sliding door into the hall, having a socket in the hall was not a problem, still within 3 meters of shower rose, but because we assume door will be closed it is OK, I would never shower with the door open.

 

[LastManOnline]

My friend. Appreciate your point. However one of the hallmarks of great British engineering and innovation has been its forward looking and open approach to learning. Been prepared to adapt and twerk is essential for progess

I’m certainly not against innovation and innovative ideas but there are ways and means! and implying (especially to our trainees) you condone ‘twerking’ with the regs or installation is a dangerous idea when dealing with electricity and ‘not very bright’ (as also implied) members of the public!
Regulation 133.5 may allow a certain amount of ‘twerking’ (your words) and that’s fine if you can demonstrate greater or equally safe measures to the regs and are prepared to put your name to the certificate, carry on!
[/QUOTE]

My friend. Appreciate your point. However one of the hallmarks of great British engineering and innovation has been its forward looking and open approach to learning. Been prepared to adapt and twerk is essential for progess

I’m certainly not against innovation and innovative ideas but there are ways and means! and implying (especially to our trainees) you condone ‘twerking’ with the regs or installation is a dangerous idea when dealing with electricity and ‘not very bright’ (as also implied) members of the public!
Regulation 133.5 may allow a certain amount of ‘twerking’ (your words) and that’s fine if you can demonstrate greater or equally safe measures to the regs and are prepared to put your name to the certificate, carry on!
[/QUOTE]

Yes UK electrical regulations can be very old fashioned at times, but have also been regarded as being among the safest in the world.
Should we lower our standards on some things to match what ot

Of course we aren't perfect and there are areas where the UK needs to raise its standards to match the rest of the world, such as with TNCS supplies and earth electrodes.
[/QUOTE]

"Yes UK electrical regulations can be very old fashioned at times"

Name some

Of course we aren't perfect and there are areas where the UK needs to raise its standards to match the rest of the world, such as with TNCS supplies and earth electrodes.

Which countries have higher standards in TNC-S than UK ?

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Yes UK electrical regulations can be very old fashioned at times,

Name some?

Of course we aren't perfect and there are areas where the UK needs to raise its standards to match the rest of the world, such as with TNCS supplies and earth electrodes.

Which countries TNC-S standards would you like meet?

Apologies for previous post. Cracked screen

 

[pc1966]

I'm really struggling to work out what the last post by @Edmond Noonan is saying - a lot of broken formatting!

 

[LastManOnline]

I'm really struggling to work out what the last post by @Edmond Noonan is saying - a lot of broken formatting!

Yes. Cracked screen on my tablet. It was intended to be a response to "Davesparks" comment about "old-fashioned UK regs".

I asked if he could name some.

Secondly, he feels the UK needs to "raise its standards to match the rest of the world Regarding TNC-S and earth electrodes"

I would be very curious to know which countries he is looking to emulate