Sockets & Sinks - The Law?

Susie Nathan

Susie Nathan

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I'm renting a flat and just before I moved in the landlord got some cowboys in to tosh up the paint work, lay some cheap vinyl flooring and a new kitchen was installed. However, the kitchen wiring is a concern. In summary, fridge, washing machine, oven, hob and extractor are all running from the oven switch, via cables, through junction boxes to extensions etc. All laid under the kitchen units, in a galley style layout. The fridge and washing machine are plugged into a twin socket extension lead positioned directly under the sink and the cupboard beneath.

Please can someone advise me whether this is against Building Regs, H&S etc.

Despite the original extension overloading and the fuse of the washing machine blowing, the landlords electrician replaced the extension like for like.

Plus, I've yet to see an Electrical Safety Certificate....I've asked, asked, asked again....

20181208_084217~2.jpg
 
telectrix said:
complete bodge. get the buggers back to do it right.
Click to expand...
Any paper work issued by Bob the Builder? do what Tel suggests, get the Butcher back to do the install correctly, if no action I would suggest Trading standards as your first port of call, the job is a complete bodge up. a disgrace, if you get nil joy with TS, name and shame the Builder.
 
Hi Susie,
you are quite correct to be concerned. First you should voice your concerns with the landlord.
Put it in writing. Keep it polite and to the point. Just state you are concerned with the wiring and want reasurance that all is safe. Keep a copy of letter.

Next stage if things are not rectified. Contact local authority.

Don't delay in this, do it straight away. Give your landlord a little time to respond and rectify. If nothing has happened in 3 weeks then contact local authority.

Your land lord has a legal duty of care to ensure the property is safe for occupation.

Good luck.
 
The “extension” that has been replaced looks like a proper 13A socket, on a pattress box and fed by 2.5mm t&e
Apart from it being untidy, not secure and not in the right place, electrically, it will cope fine with a fridge freezer and washing machine plugged in.

The original might have just been old, and socket didn’t have a good grip of the plug pin.

How do you mean, supplied from the oven switch?

Is there an electrician you know or someone that can have a look at it for you, to give you an idea of what to say to the landlord?
 
Littlespark got it spot-on.
The local authority are not usually even mildly interested...unless bodies are being removed :eek: and would literally allow socket outlets to be mounted IN the sink....as long as it was above the overflow ;)
 
Susie Nathan said:
I'm renting a flat and just before I moved in the landlord got some cowboys in to tosh up the paint work, lay some cheap vinyl flooring and a new kitchen was installed. However, the kitchen wiring is a concern. In summary, fridge, washing machine, oven, hob and extractor are all running from the oven switch, via cables, through junction boxes to extensions etc. All laid under the kitchen units, in a galley style layout. The fridge and washing machine are plugged into a twin socket extension lead positioned directly under the sink and the cupboard beneath.

Please can someone advise me whether this is against Building Regs, H&S etc.

Despite the original extension overloading and the fuse of the washing machine blowing, the landlords electrician replaced the extension like for like.

Plus, I've yet to see an Electrical Safety Certificate....I've asked, asked, asked again....

View attachment 48368
Click to expand...

Sorry to have to break it to you lass...but your landlord's a cheapskate...

As has been said...get it in writing to him...
Keep a copy of any letters you send...
 
Susie Nathan said:
Thanks guys. So it's generally poor, shoddy, cheapness. Yet its not technically breaking the law?? Am I right?
Click to expand...

If your flat is not purpose built it might be classed as a HMO (Housing act 2004-Part3). If it is, your landlord must have an Electrical Installation Condition Report (EICR). If not, it's not legally required now, but will be for all new tenancies later this year and all tenancies next year. Ask your local HMO officer if you are not sure, it's different in each council. Being curious by nature, he might want to take a look.
Another good bit of legislation is the Homes (Fitness for Human Habitation) Act 2018, which came into force on 20 March 2019.
This will help stop landlords renting unfit properties.
 
Does the cooker switch have a socket on it?
I thought the cooker switch circuit is to supply the cooker only. I didn't think it was allowed to supply other appliances in the kitchen?
 
mr. shr said:
Does the cooker switch have a socket on it?
I thought the cooker switch circuit is to supply the cooker only. I didn't think it was allowed to supply other appliances in the kitchen?
Click to expand...

So...
What your saying...is you wouldn't pick both a cooker AND a hob off it...?
(assuming it meets loading requirements etc)
 
If done correctly then cooker and hob can be part of the same cooking circuit yes.
But OP has fridge and washing machine also supplied from cooker circuit.
I didn't think that was allowed.
 
mr. shr said:
If done correctly then cooker and hob can be part of the same cooking circuit yes.
But OP has fridge and washing machine also supplied from cooker circuit.
I didn't think that was allowed.
Click to expand...

A cooker switch frequently has a socket combined with it. Ostensibly for a kettle, but there is no rule to say it can't be something else, such as a 2 way adapter feeding a fridge and washing machine.
 
GeorgeCooke said:
A cooker switch frequently has a socket combined with it. Ostensibly for a kettle, but there is no rule to say it can't be something else, such as a 2 way adapter feeding a fridge and washing machine.
Click to expand...


The poor little lamb simply doesn't understand the virtues of outlets and plug tops to BS1363...
 
Susie Nathan said:
I'm renting a flat and just before I moved in the landlord got some cowboys in to tosh up the paint work, lay some cheap vinyl flooring and a new kitchen was installed. However, the kitchen wiring is a concern. In summary, fridge, washing machine, oven, hob and extractor are all running from the oven switch, via cables, through junction boxes to extensions etc. All laid under the kitchen units, in a galley style layout. The fridge and washing machine are plugged into a twin socket extension lead positioned directly under the sink and the cupboard beneath.

Please can someone advise me whether this is against Building Regs, H&S etc.

Despite the original extension overloading and the fuse of the washing machine blowing, the landlords electrician replaced the extension like for like.

Plus, I've yet to see an Electrical Safety Certificate....I've asked, asked, asked again....

View attachment 48368
Click to expand...
So a year later and no action from landlord until now....

I have an 'Electrical Safety Certificate' inspection booked for the 26th August.

Any tips on how to approach the electrician and explain the seriously dodgy setup without sounding like I know nothing..........

Since last posting, the hob and hood fuses blew, we worked out the problem and changed these ourselves.

I've also had a HUGE electricity bill totally £1500 for 18 months. My concern is that it's a studio flat! I'm convinced I'm supplying the electricity for the communal internal and external areas and possibly elsewhere too. How can I tell if my suspicions are right?
 
Susie Nathan said:
So a year later and no action from landlord until now....

I have an 'Electrical Safety Certificate' inspection booked for the 26th August.

Any tips on how to approach the electrician and explain the seriously dodgy setup without sounding like I know nothing..........

Since last posting, the hob and hood fuses blew, we worked out the problem and changed these ourselves.

I've also had a HUGE electricity bill totally £1500 for 18 months. My concern is that it's a studio flat! I'm convinced I'm supplying the electricity for the communal internal and external areas and possibly elsewhere too. How can I tell if my suspicions are right?
Click to expand...
Explain your fears, and if you can post a copy of the report on the forum, blanking any name and addresses out of course, but please make sure you get a copy of the report.
 
Show the electrician what you’ve found. Wait for the EICR, see what it says, specifically what you’ve found. Reply back here.

You could consider your own report.
 
Is it possible for you to show pictures of your meter (cupboard) and switch gear as well as a panned back view of the cooker and hob and switch you mention. Is this a house or a block of flats. How many tenants are there, as HMO requires six or more. That carbonisation on your double socket looks like a faulty appliance rather than overload. If it was the fuse blowing, then I am curious to know why the main fuse did not blow or did it?
 
i would be concerned if the report is being commissioned by the landlord.
1. he'll get the cheapest quick look over possible.
2. some rogue "electrician" wii give him a satisfactory report even if it's a mess.

my advice is to get a forum member sparks ( several in the London area), to do a proper test/inspection and give you a EICR. this runs to about 8 pages, but for a studio flat, cost shouldnot be more than about £150 (subject to things like parking costs, congestion chargesif applicable) .

as for the leccy bill, that equates to around £20/week which seems high for a studio flat.check with your supplier what tariff you are on. if you are on dualtariff, the daytime rate is higher than normal. 16p. per kWH is about standard.
also if you get a EICR done, get the electrician to check if you are in fact being charged for any electric usage outside of your own flat.
 
I agree with the above posts. Although the landlord may be doing this at his expense, he may know the person doing the inspection and could end up just glancing over it and passing it to please the landlord. I would consider getting your own inspection, although this is up to you as you will be paying for it and ultimately it is a rented property and you may not want to. However, it will be more transparent and if you get a reputable person/company you will have a more detailed report.
 
Hi,thanks for sticking with it :)

Firstly,the inspection your landlord will probably have booked,will not be an EICR,but a standard landlord safety inspection,which is generally a lesser endeavour...

Secondly,what problem did you sort yourselves,with the hob and hood fuses? Was the landlord involved in this repair?

Thirdly,depending on what set-up you have,the bill could be correct,unless vastly increased on a previous time period,with the same equipment. If you have access to the meter,it should not be hard to work out if the communal areas are added to your load.

The advice,regarding getting your own EICR done,may well be prudent and revealing,but you would have to do that,with permission of the landlord. This is not a grey area.

I hope you get to the bottom of your quest,and inform us of the story :cool:
 
I am sure it is not right, however as to the right way to get fixed, not so sure, clearly if you have a flood you have to leave your home, and insurance will likely pay the extra to live in a hotel, but insurance is unlikely to cover what was never right in the first place, and so much depends on your contract as to what happens if some one decides the home is not inhabitable.

There was a case where some old lady rented out her house, and she was made aware of an electrical short coming so engaged an electrician to fix it, however in the mean time before the electrician had got around to doing the job, the young lady renting the house was killed, we are only talking about a week delay waiting for electrician, it was made plain by the court the home should not have been occupied until fixed. It seems the old lady should have said sorry you will need to move out until fixed.

If the property is classed as not habitable then you need to move out, we as electricians are told we need to find alternative accommodation if we find or do something to make a home not habitable, but no one says who has to pay, that would depend on contracts signed.

Moving out for a week is one thing, but how long would it take to get the faults fixed, to start with likely the land lord will want some quotes, so likely 2 weeks before any work could start, and then likely the kitchen will need stripping to do the work, and the land lord has I think 28 days to fix C2 faults, and any C1 and he has to move you out until fixed.

I have when younger flexed my mussels and said xyz must be done before I can work here, and I have been told there's the gate, pick up your cards on the way, does not matter what the law says, as there is usually some other law that allows them to do some thing like say sorry you need to move out.

I don't know how you live, but I moved house just over a year ago, and I still have not completed the move, when from 2⅓ houses to 1, sold 1⅓ houses, but other one is still technically mine and I am still transferring stuff. My son is buying it so no hurry.

If it was easy to find better accommodation then I will assume you would have moved, so you need to tread careful, my son has been living with a single ring induction hob, and a microwave cooker for last 4 months, he started to move in just before lock down, and we had move the cooker, dishwasher, washing machine, drier, freezer and fridge freezer to this house, OK we can do it, as he is my son and no rental agreement, but I have been waiting for builders to return to fix a roof leak for 5 months, they can't get the materials, so temporary fixes only.

In Wales it seems the requirement for an EICR is only for multi occupation premises as the Welsh government said it could cause homelessness if it was introduced to all property. It is easy on the internet to tell you your rights, if it all goes wrong it is not us looking for a new home.
 
Keeping it simple I would wait until you have had the 'report' carried out. Then put a copy of it on here so you can get some replies and advice.
If the report shows up all the failings then problem solved.
If it looks like a shoddy report then I would get an electrician of your choice to carry out an EICR. I realise that is forking out £150-£200 but it doesn't look like you're getting very far with your landlord and you want to be safe.
last option may be to find somewhere else to live if none of the above works!
 
EricMark said:
If the property is classed as not habitable then you need to move out,

and any C1 and he has to move you out until fixed.

does not matter what the law says, as there is usually some other law that allows them to do some thing like say sorry you need to move out.
Click to expand...

Landlords don't have to find a tenant alternative accommodation if the house becomes uninhabitable. The landlord is only required to release a tenant from their contract if the house becomes uninhabitable.

Likewise a landlord is not required to reduce the rent and a tenant enters arrears if they decide to withold rent until something is repaired.

A landlord cannot evict a tenant during the initial term of a tenancy for no reason, as long as rent is paid on time in full they can't evict you. After the initial term of a tenancy, or after the date of the break clause if there is one, a no-fault eviction is possible, but is a lengthy legal process for the landlord.

Likewise a tenant cannot end a tenancy until after the initial term or break clause unless they have mutual agreement of the landlord.
 
Reading @davesparks reply the question seems to be is the property habitable? If not then you can simply move out, if it is then it seems little you can do.

So it seems 26th August is when you find out. England, Scotland and Wales all require an EICR but not quite the same, Wales it seems only requires it for multi occupancy their point it seems is if they make it too hard to rent a property then it will cause homelessness so they want to strike a balance. Who can do an EICR also varies, Scotland seems to be most strict.

There is argument among sparks, the old PIR (periodic inspection report) had 4 codes, and code 4 said it did not comply with current regulations, but the new EICR (electrical installation condition report) dropped the code 4, and one is only suppose to say if dangerous (C1) might be dangerous with second fault (C2) recommend an upgrade (C3) so as the tenant your only interested in C1 or C2. With a C1 the person testing must make safe, be it turn off the supply or repair it does not matter, but no time allowed to fix it. With a C2 they are allowed time, think 28 days to fix it.

What seems to be a problem is what is considered as a C2, in theory if a house was safe in 1954 and nothing has been damaged or degraded it is still safe today. There are some things which do not follow that, with for example a TT supply (uses an earth rod) the use of powerline adaptors means it needs a type F RCD to ensure it trips, and in 1954 there were no powerline adaptors, so there are exceptions, but although what you show is bad, and likely does not comply with current BS7671 not sure if it is potentially dangerous.

Before the EICR needed to show no C2 codes for the house to be rented electrics used the current edition of BS7671 to guide them when coding, but it has been pointed out now it's a legal document they have to have insurance and other things that were optional and also need to know when the system was designed to use the BS7671 as guidance as which version is used depends on dates.

I am glad I have retired, the rules are getting too complex for my liking, I was trained in the days when we were professionals, and we used our skill to decide what was and what was not dangerous, today it seems we have to do everything by the book.
 
EricMark said:
What seems to be a problem is what is considered as a C2, in theory if a house was safe in 1954 and nothing has been damaged or degraded it is still safe today.
Click to expand...

This is incorrect, the date of the original installation is irrelevant to the EICR, it is carried out in accordance with and to the current regulations.

There are many reasons an original install from 1954 could be given a C2 code without any damage or degradation.
 

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Susie Nathan

Susie Nathan

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Sockets & Sinks - The Law?
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Electrical Wiring, Theories and Regulations
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