special location?

[Adam W]

Oh dear.

Sigh.

That would be a special installation, not a location.

No, I think they are calling it a kitchen.

What do you mean "Oh dear"?
If you've got a point to make come out and say it, don't just say "Oh dear", "Sigh", and draw sarcastic smileys.
How would you differentiate between a 'special location' and a 'special installation' then? In my copy of BS7671 the IET seem to have grouped them together.

According to what you said a location with an increased risk of fire is a special location.
There is an increased risk of fire in a kitchen because people cook in them, which can involve hot oil and even naked flames, but then you go on to say you think [the NIC] don't refer to kitchens as special locations, but simply as "a kitchen". Which one is it?

 

[Johno]

Handbags!
I don't get it, novusparks I thought it was you who was saying a kitchen isn't a special location.

 

[sparkylad]

Bs 7671 doesnt clasify a Kitchen as a Special location, interestingly enough though The Building Regs do group a Kitchen alongside the Special Locations section for Part P notification ....Different Regs, Differing uses of the same terminology no wonder cunfusion can exist


sparkylad..

 

[Johno]

Bs 7671 doesnt clasify a Kitchen as a Special location, interestingly enough though The Building Regs do group a Kitchen alongside the Special Locations section for Part P notification ....Different Regs, Differing uses of the same terminology no wonder cunfusion can exist


sparkylad..

Couldn't agree more.

 

[Des 56]

Well the niceic and some of its members, who may be slightly brainwashed into thinking the Niceic are more than what they actually are
Niceic regulations are for Niceic members who may sometinmes forget that it is actually the Iee who make the regulations

The niceic play with guidances and attempt to portray them as regulations
They have succeeded to a certain extent because its not unknown for clients to believe that they are the authors of those "Nic regs"

If you want to be religious ( electrically) "do not follow false prophets" ( niceic)
there is only one true god (IEE)

 

[Sparky Ninja]

I never made a suggestion that supported the NIC. It just so happened that the nearest book to me that would likely have a definition of special location was an NIC book.

I have always supported my decisions on IEE regulations. I am a memeber of the IET myself anyways. I was simply bemused as to the discrimination some guys have towards NIC publications and ethic.

I'm sure if I wrote down that my quote was from the back of a milk carton then nothing would have been said.

 

[Deleted member 9648]

Well the niceic and some of its members, who may be slightly brainwashed into thinking the Niceic are more than what they actually are
Niceic regulations are for Niceic members who may sometinmes forget that it is actually the Iee who make the regulations

The niceic play with guidances and attempt to portray them as regulations
They have succeeded to a certain extent because its not unknown for clients to believe that they are the authors of those "Nic regs"

If you want to be religious ( electrically) "do not follow false prophets" ( niceic)
there is only one true god (IEE)

I am not aware of any instances where the NIC attempt to provide their own regulations. The literature they provide is intended to clarify and interpret Bs 7671 for the electrician on site,not to replace the regulations. The passage quoted from NIC literature is merely to describe the thinking behind why some locations are singled out for special treatment in 7671.....it is not saying that anywhere anyone has wet hands,(or wet anything else) is a special location.
Why the animosity towards the NIC.?....I put it down to jealousy....they have been around for a long time,and everyone gets asked regularly when enquiries come in for work,"Are you NIC"?....must be a bit annoying when you say ,"No,I'm NAPIT".........."Who"???.....phone goes down.

 

[Sparky Ninja]

Well the niceic and some of its members, who may be slightly brainwashed into thinking the Niceic are more than what they actually are
Niceic regulations are for Niceic members who may sometinmes forget that it is actually the Iee who make the regulations

The niceic play with guidances and attempt to portray them as regulations
They have succeeded to a certain extent because its not unknown for clients to believe that they are the authors of those "Nic regs"

If you want to be religious ( electrically) "do not follow false prophets" ( niceic)
there is only one true god (IEE)

I'm amazed you got any thanks for that utter nonsense.

 

[malcolmsanford]

For many years there was only NICEIC really and that was basically just used for commercial and industrial, domestic well .......... it was anymans game.

I worked closely with them for years and I always found them to be good, perhaps little mightier than thou but no problems. What went wrong with NICEIC is the Part P I honestly think they imagined as they were the only kids on the block at the time it would be thier game. As we know it didn't quite work out like that. Other organisations sprung up and delivered a better service than the NICEIC did and they were caught napping.

Wether this is the reason that they fall back to this "We know best, becasue we were the first" attitude and go about putting their interpretation on all thing regs I don't know. Their publications are very good and very informative, some of their snagging books are quite exceptional and they are a huge organisation. But they do seem to be more interested in diversifying into publication etc then being assisiting the Electrician in what he wants, help in the front line.

I left them for Elecsa, I found that Elecsa where helpful, supportive and easy to deal with, which is what you want. I just think the NICEIC were caught napping and they have not quite caught up with the Elecsa and Napits of this new world

 

[Deleted member 9648]

I'm afraid I have to agree with Widdler, Des your posts are always first class......but that isnt one of them mate.

 

[Des 56]

Sorry if I twanged a few strings that was not intended

When I write of the Niceic and make these critisisms,(which are always very fierce) because I honestly believe and have believed for many years, that they are the enemy of maintaining and improving standards in our industry

The critisism is of the structure of the organisation and never on an individual or its membership
Whether sparks are non registered,with another organisation or with the Niceic,its our industry and they being the main players,they have a lot to answer for as far as I am concerned
We as electricians have a very unstable industry with many issues that are unlikey to be resolved in the near future
I am angry that the changes made to out industry in the last few years was first instigated by that organisation, with little regard for its impact, and for persuading the government to implement a system that extended the QS niceic system to domestic installations
The lack of individual competence in domestic work should not have been permitted
It was perhaps suitable for large scale contracting where the companies veted the individual by such things as the JIB grading etc
What we have now is a system where for example,other trades find it very simple to enter our trade and by doing so,can then employ myriads of unskilled workers to do the work that was once the remit of the trained spark
I do not envy anything about that organisation and would be very happy if for once decisions that they made were of help to the industry,I would then support them in their efforts,but that is not their intentions or ever will be
We often have heard on this and other forums about 5 day wonders etc
At least those people are getting trained as best they can
The QS system can and does operate with very little or no emphasis on any sort of training,I would relish the opportunity of questioning them on any justification for that system in the domestic market and would await their replies with great anticipation and probable amusement at those attempts

As for the post I made regarding members ending up believing their guidances and the quip about Nic regs it was more in humour coupled with sarcasm about the percieved Nicei status amongst many outsiders who deal with our industry

Again the post was not and wasn't intended to be an Niceic member critisism,I wouldn't and I have no right to judge any individual in this industry other than my rants about our ruling organisations
These points I have made can also be applied generally
The other schemes are also falling into the trap of buisness before having a caring attitude to our industry
No offence was meant to any Niceic member,Sparks have enough to contend with without turning against one and other and I would not wish that to be so
We have what we have,but that doesn't mean we should always accept it

 

[Deleted member 9648]

Recieved and understood Des.......I agree with the gist of your views.

 

[Adam W]

I have no particularly strong feelings either way on the NICEIC other than that it is not their place to make up their own alternative wiring regs or differently interpret BS7671 any more than it is the place of any other organisation, whether it be Elecsa, Napit, ECA or anyone else, regardless of when they were established, how many members they have or how loud they can shout.

The original post was asking whether or not a toilet is a special location.
As per BS7671 no it isn't because it's not specified in section 7, either as a location or installation.
As per NIC's interpretation (or at least the interpretation credited to them by widdler) a person is likely to be in a certain state of undress while using the room, or could be at increased risk of electric shock to the restricted mobility afforded by having one's pants around their ankles, so could be classed as a special location (or installation).
Likewise the example I gave where the NIC seem to be saying because there is an increased risk of fire a kitchen could be classed as a special location (or installation), however the IEE state "As far as BS7671 is concerned, a kitchen is not a special location".

Firstly this is wrong because it creates unecessary confusion, and the last thing anyone needs when it comes to electricity is unecessary confusion.
Secondly if the NICEIC introduce their own regulations and/or interpretations then so can every other competent person scheme, then we are left with a situation where the way an installation is carried out is dependent on which scheme the spark belongs to, and one could be seen as being 'better' than another on this basis.

 

[vitoboy]

not undress just moisture...so brothel....?
maybe..
but special location....some place ur more likely to get killed than usual....
which for some of is a really....special...location....any...torys...out..there...............

 

[Deleted member 9648]

I have no particularly strong feelings either way on the NICEIC other than that it is not their place to make up their own alternative wiring regs or differently interpret BS7671 any more than it is the place of any other organisation, whether it be Elecsa, Napit, ECA or anyone else, regardless of when they were established, how many members they have or how loud they can shout.

The original post was asking whether or not a toilet is a special location.
As per BS7671 no it isn't because it's not specified in section 7, either as a location or installation.
As per NIC's interpretation (or at least the interpretation credited to them by widdler) a person is likely to be in a certain state of undress while using the room, or could be at increased risk of electric shock to the restricted mobility afforded by having one's pants around their ankles, so could be classed as a special location (or installation).
Likewise the example I gave where the NIC seem to be saying because there is an increased risk of fire a kitchen could be classed as a special location (or installation), however the IEE state "As far as BS7671 is concerned, a kitchen is not a special location".

Firstly this is wrong because it creates unecessary confusion, and the last thing anyone needs when it comes to electricity is unecessary confusion.
Secondly if the NICEIC introduce their own regulations and/or interpretations then so can every other competent person scheme, then we are left with a situation where the way an installation is carried out is dependent on which scheme the spark belongs to, and one could be seen as being 'better' than another on this basis.

Can anyone please give examples of NIC "regulations"??.....all of the above is intended as guidance for members on how to interpret and understand the regulations. In the end, and regarless of any percieved preferences of your scheme,you have to comply with 7671.If anyone can give me an actual example of an NIC requirement/regulation which is not in 7671 then please do so.