Swapping 2x 1 gang 2 way for smart switches

[LeeRalph]

Hi All,

I'm looking to make my LED downlights smart by adding 2 way smart switching and I understand the way to achieve this is by adding two smart switches, one being dumb with the main switch using scenes in the app to activate the dumb switch? I.e. I will have a virtual 2 way smart setup.

Currently I have 1 main switch as switch 1 with 5 cores (Common = live in, L1 and L2 includes live to switch 2, 2x travellers to switch 2 and a sleeved black which might be switched neutral (not sure)).

The second switch which will become dumb receives the live from switch 1 and 2 travellers.

My question is with switch 1, how do I wire so that it operates the downlights as 1 way? I'm not sure what to do with the sleeved black.

Also. I have no neutral at the switches and therefore was going to use the supplied capacitor across the live and neutral at the first downlight to provide power back to switch 1, but I'm not sure how to add this neutral functionality to switch 2?

Any help much appreciated.

Thanks, Lee

 

[Avo Mk8]

No to 'switched neutral'.
If your wiring is as per the diagram below, which it looks as if it might be, then (at the first two-way switch) the sleeved black should be the feed to the light, and the red is permanent live (line). Just those two going to a smart switch would turn the light on/off.

Typically a two way smart switch either needs a physical connection from a traditional switch (so the switch could be the second one you have, with traveller connections modified), or the smart switch will receive a signal from another smart switch, or the app. You only really need one smart switch or one smart 2-way module. What are you considering, or have?
Why not use a 2-way smart module to put behind the existing switch plate?

Once you add the capacitor across the lamp you have your substitute for a neutral, you don't need anything further at the second switch.

 

[LeeRalph]

Thanks for the response Avo. I didn’t realise smart modules were available and therefore have bought 2 x smart switches.

I think I follow your suggestion of the configuration for the main switch, red live into comm as it is currently and sleeved black out to downlights.

Please can you explain how I integrate switch 2 for “dumb/ virtual” 2 way functionality? Is that bundling the red & sleeved black from switch 1 line 1 and connecting the red to comm in dumb switch 2? Yellow and blue travellers isolated with wago?

Thanks, Lee

Many thanks, Lee

 

[Avo Mk8]

Different makes of smart switch have different ways of wiring for 2-way
Can you tell me which you've got please?
and is there a diagram supplied showing how to wire 2-way? Can you attach it?

You will need two wires to the second switch, and then isolate the third wire as you say.
They may be the red and sleeved black, or there may be a separate terminal for 2-way?

I'll be out for a few hours but will check back this afternoon.

 

[LeeRalph]

Different makes of smart switch have different ways of wiring for 2-way
Can you tell me which you've got please?
and is there a diagram supplied showing how to wire 2-way? Can you attach it?

You will need two wires to the second switch, and then isolate the third wire as you say.
They may be the red and sleeved black, or there may be a separate terminal for 2-way?

I'll be out for a few hours but will check back this afternoon.

Thanks for bearing with me. I wish there was a separate terminal for 2 way, but unfortunately not. The make is JL Media.

Please find a pic of the switch attached, the only terminals with screws are N, L and L1. Remembering I don't have neutral at the switch so will use the capacitor across the first downlight.

I believe the second diagram for non-Neutral is incorrect as it suggests multiple 2 way terminals.

Thanks, Lee

 

[Avo Mk8]

Well I'm sorry to say that there's no sign at the moment that switch can handle 2-way operation, other than, as you say, via app.

The problem now is that the 'bodge' to get a smart switch to work with no neutral (the added capacitor) can't be used, as far as I can see, for a second switch. For this to work, you need a proper neutral at the second switch, because the switch needs power between L and N to work and send an RF signal. None of the wires you have are neutral, and no spare ones go back to where a neutral is.

You can't put a second switch across the first to benefit from the bodge, because with two switches in parallel, either will turn the light on, but the other won't turn it off!

So I can't presently see how you can do it with those particular smart switches.

Have you seen anywhere a circuit diagram for proper 2-way operation with those exact switches in a 'no neutral' situation?

I'm afraid at this point I would resort to a product designed for 2-way switching in your 'no-neutral' situation!

Don't forget you have a neutral at the light fitting(s), so you could put a smart module there and use kinetic (or Quinetic) switches etc. There's a Shelley 1 Gen3 module that has a switch input terminal, that you could put at a light fitting, restore your wall switches to their original wiring, trace the wire that's sleeved black back to the light and put that into the Shelley SW terminal.

 

[LeeRalph]

I feared that might be the case. Would a module like this SONOFF one work?

 

[Avo Mk8]

I feared that might be the case. Would a module like this SONOFF one work?

Yes it would.
You would need to fit it at the ceiling rose where the light switch wires go back to, and reconfigure the light switch wiring so one switch fed S1 and the other switch S2.
Or it might be easier to just revert the light switch wiring to its original 2-way configuration, and put their feed on just one terminal.
There are online forums and support for these popular makes so you can generally get whatever info you need.

 

[LeeRalph]

Yes it would.
You would need to fit it at the ceiling rose where the light switch wires go back to, and reconfigure the light switch wiring so one switch fed S1 and the other switch S2.
Or it might be easier to just revert the light switch wiring to its original 2-way configuration, and put their feed on just one terminal.
There are online forums and support for these popular makes so you can generally get whatever info you need.

brilliant thanks for your support. Lee