switchgear for lift

[russells]

Hopefully this one will be a simple one to answer.

A lift in a premises as been determined as a fire lift (to be used in evacuation under fire conditions)
the lift as to have 2 supplies of power, with basically switchgear (not provided in the lift electrics) that would simoultaneously cange the supply if one of the cables supplying was burnt out.

So this is the situation, we have a mains board in a building with plenty of spare ways in the board, and capacity, we will run two single phase supplies from this board to the lift motor room (by the way the fuseboard cupboard, and the lift motor room have enhanced fire protection) the cables have to go through different routes in the building fabric to get to the motor room (basically have a fire compartmentation drawing of the building and cabling must take different routes in different fire zones) (fire officer happy with this so).

My question is what switchgear do we have in the motoroom, we obviously have two cables from the same fuseboard that will go through a changeover switch, one cable will be master(either one) and one will be slave. the need will be for the power to not be interupted to the lift.

it is possible that we could use a manual type switch, again what would this switch be called, does this exist.

I am not an electrician but a construction manager, this problem is looming in the near future, this isnt in original building spec and will have to cop the cost our electrical contractor is going to wrap me up in smoke and mirrors and try and charge me a fortune so hopefully can gather as much information as possible.

Welcome any questions, and of course answers.

Russell

 

[trev]

netblind paul being one of them?

If he were on yes but he wernt

 

[spark 68]

The other point on this generally is, AFAIK this is not subject to 'Normal' BS7671 requirements.

 

[mogga]

Id suggest automatic change over for the generator and running second supply from genny db most backup gennys iv seen only have anuto change over BUPA Homes have a genny hookup not an onsite genny tho

 

[russells]

ok theree may be some discussion to the whole set up being not normal etc.

the question remains, what name for switchgear, name of automatic switchgear, name for manual switchgear.

I need to start looking at costs for switchgear, but do not know what to search for.

just on a note, the management of a fire situation in this home, (like many others) is a controlled evacuation, the staff have very thorough training and the whole building infrastructure, both the existing and the new have enhanced measures for ,
1. Ignition of a fire being incredibly unlikely (obviously arson is never considered in the fire equation as you just cannot build in measures.) combustible material as been risk assessed an non combustible replacements are prefered.
2. fire fighting equipment both manual estinguishers, and a sprinkler system. (fire fighting training to all staff)
3. fire alarm and zone reference panels at strategic and nursecall points.
4. mag locks, overhead automatic door closures to all bedrooms, fire compartmentation enhanced over what part B LABC determines.

The risk is taken very seriously, and managed very seriously.

Russell

 

[spark 68]

Generally when we have built this kind of switch gear, it is just called an Auto Changeover,

As several of the posters have already said, this will be located at a point where the person responsible for safety/fire/building control deems to be suitable, the supply cables taking two different routes, depending on the zoning of the building.

As I already have pointed out the PIR for this is subject to different rules than BS7671, and may fall under various different Statute laws, which I cannot advise on.

This is a complex and specialist problem on so many levels, and costs may not be a consideration for parts of this.

Netblind Paul and several other contributors on here may be able to give you a more in depth answer.

 

[Engineer54]

Russel,

What you have here, as you have described it so far, is a can of worms to be honest with you!! Whether you like it or not, you are going to have get involved with the existing electrical installations, because they will be integrally combined with your new contract works. I'm pretty sure there must be something in your contract of work on this issue too!!

Anything that has a title of ''Emergency or Essential'' that involves electrical supply or supplies will need to be automatic, and not manual. It isn't normal to have a secondary, or emergency supply taken from the same DB. So in your case, i would be looking at the stand-by generator as your secondary means of supply. (if it is of sufficient size/rating) This will need to be on an automatic basis as mentioned above, not on a manual switch.

Now for a few questions for you.... What happens to the existing supply when a fire alarm is initiated, does it knockout all but essential electrical supplies, or nothing at all?? What if anything is going to initiate a changeover from one supply to another for this lift?? You can't just say If one of the cables gets burnt out!! Are you sure that the lift motor is a single phase motor, i've personally never seen one?? Is the DB you are talking about an existing unit, or one supplied/installed under your contract?? Is there any chance of you posting some photo's of the DB (open) and the generator installation??


I'm going to leave it there for the time being, to see what you come back with. I think you've done the right thing by looking at this problem before it hits you. I think you have far more to be concerned about, than your electrical contractor hitting the contract with extra costs, to be bluntly honest with you.

 

[Specialist]

ok theree may be some discussion to the whole set up being not normal etc.

the question remains, what name for switchgear, name of automatic switchgear, name for manual switchgear.

I need to start looking at costs for switchgear, but do not know what to search for.]QUOTE

Just a thought Russell & maybe i'm missing something but the Electrical Contractor / Engineer your useing for this project should know all of this, if they're up to the job.

 

[Knobhead]

The change over equipment must be in the motor room. During a fire access isn’t practical. So it’s down to an auto-changeover. I’ve had a look on Google and a contactor based unit can be found for £290. These were listed as suitable for residential and commercial use. Motor Starters UK » Automatic Transfer Switch either the ATS-R or ATS-P. But please speak to your on site engineer first before deciding.

Avoid home made units like the plague due to certification problems. I could soon put a drawing together for you to have built, but I won’t!

 

[Engineer54]

ok theree may be some discussion to the whole set up being not normal etc.

the question remains, what name for switchgear, name of automatic switchgear, name for manual switchgear.

I need to start looking at costs for switchgear, but do not know what to search for.]QUOTE

Just a thought Russell & maybe i'm missing something but the Electrical Contractor / Engineer your useing for this project should know all of this, if they're up to the job.

I get the impression, that he doesn't trust his electrical contractor to give him an honest answer. Maybe they have been trying to cream the contract?? But as you say, they should be his first contact for advice on this matter. I can see this turning into a can of worms for him if he doesn't get it right or tries to cut corners on the costs side of things...

 

[benji]

who installed the lift ? is there an electrical consultant who should be responsible for specifying equipement

 

[Specialist]

I get the impression, that he doesn't trust his electrical contractor to give him an honest answer. Maybe they have been trying to cream the contract?? But as you say, they should be his first contact for advice on this matter. I can see this turning into a can of worms for him if he doesn't get it right or tries to cut corners on the costs side of things...

Totally agree with you Eng 54, If I was in his shoes i'd be getting pretty wary about now. If his Electrical firm can't Spec this properly & don't know the correct terminolgy for the parts required, maybe it's time to look elsewhere.

 

[Engineer54]

who installed the lift ? is there an electrical consultant who should be responsible for specifying equipement

This guy's a ''Site Manager'' so he is the guy that is project managing the whole installation accross all the trades and disciplines. So even if the contracts electrical installation was designed by a consultancy company, they aren't involved anymore, and this is i believe an ''Addition''!! So they would want an additional fee for this work. The last people to get advice about emergency lift supplies, is the lift company involved. I say this from experience, they will want solid gold for the supply, and then install tinplate on their side of the installation. ...lol!!!

 

[Engineer54]

Totally agree with you Eng 54, If I was in his shoes i'd be getting pretty wary about now. If his Electrical firm can't Spec this properly & don't know the correct terminolgy for the parts required, maybe it's time to look elsewhere.

I'm not saying they can't spec the additional works now requested, i'm sure they can. Just that for one reason or another the guy doesn't seem to trust them, from piling on the costs in the process!! lol!!
I don't think he's approached them officially or unofficially as yet....

 

[alarm man]

very tricky situation,id speak to the lift manufactures ie otis/kone etc and see what they recommend supply wise in the event of a fire and evacuation as they id imagine would have strict guidelines and power supply needs that their equipment needs in such an event

 

[Deleted member 26818]

In my experiance, there are always two supplies specified.
Could be a generator, or a second supply from the distributor.
Word of warning, always check phase rotation when using two supplies.
I have known two supplies from the same distributor to be out of sequence.
Causes motors to run backwards when changed over.