Temporary Supply to takeaway - Emergency

[mr_deep_]

Hi I have been asked to help with a temporary supply to a takeaway shop that has no electric meter.

I am thinking of Hiring a 10KVa generator to provide the supply but have never dealt with a job like this before.

Would love some opinions and guidance right now, would be much appreciated.

Also would the works be notifiable?

Thank

 

[snowhead]

Apart from the obvious what's happened to the existing supply?

There are lots of issues around the generator.

Suitable site to locate it, where it won't get stolen, where the noise won't annoy the neighbours or the exhaust fumes won't cause and issue with the neighbours or the occupants of the Take away.

Suitable / secure site to store fuel in a suitable container (double skin / bunded) large enough to run the generator without constantly having to refuel it.

If the property is rented/leased the Landlord would need to agree to it, which I doubt they will.
The takeaway's Insurer will need to know about it and will possibly want a premium increase.

 

[davesparks]

how has this situation arisen? takeaway shops don't spring up overnight, and electricity meters don't just vanish!

There are a lot of considerations to installing a generator, even temporarily. @snowhead has covered some of the points.

You also need to calculate the size of the generator required, taking in to consideration the run time you will get from the size versus actual load and also considering the quality of the generator. I've never yet seen a generator I would trust for this kind of application in less than a 20KVA rating.

Is there a timescale for when the meter will be fitted and a supply made available? It may be cheaper for them to remain closed for a while than it is to hire, fuel and operate a generator. Especially if environmental health take a disliking to it!

Notification isn't normally required for the actual electrical side of it, but there's a lot of other considerations to be made.

 

[mr_deep_]

Apart from the obvious what's happened to the existing supply?

There are lots of issues around the generator.

Suitable site to locate it, where it won't get stolen, where the noise won't annoy the neighbours or the exhaust fumes won't cause and issue with the neighbours or the occupants of the Take away.

Suitable / secure site to store fuel in a suitable container (double skin / bunded) large enough to run the generator without constantly having to refuel it.

If the property is rented/leased the Landlord would need to agree to it, which I doubt they will.
The takeaway's Insurer will need to know about it and will possibly want a premium increase.

This is super helpful- Thank you

I've only had an initial conversation over the phone and will be meeting him shortly so hopefully will have more information later.

I have spoken to a generator supplier who can supply the gen set / fuel / cable all insured. But I will definately mention the above points to him.

Thanks again. Will update shortly ??
[automerge]1598026556[/automerge]

how has this situation arisen? takeaway shops don't spring up overnight, and electricity meters don't just vanish!

There are a lot of considerations to installing a generator, even temporarily. @snowhead has covered some of the points.

You also need to calculate the size of the generator required, taking in to consideration the run time you will get from the size versus actual load and also considering the quality of the generator. I've never yet seen a generator I would trust for this kind of application in less than a 20KVA rating.

Is there a timescale for when the meter will be fitted and a supply made available? It may be cheaper for them to remain closed for a while than it is to hire, fuel and operate a generator. Especially if environmental health take a disliking to it!

Notification isn't normally required for the actual electrical side of it, but there's a lot of other considerations to be made.

Cheers mate. Much appreciated. I'm meeting the chap later so will update on the chat later.

Had a quote for a 40KVA @ approx £1000/we which the owner surprisingly seemed happy about?

 

[davesparks]

This is super helpful- Thank you

I've only had an initial conversation over the phone and will be meeting him shortly so hopefully will have more information later.

I have spoken to a generator supplier who can supply the gen set / fuel / cable all insured. But I will definately mention the above points to him.

Thanks again. Will update shortly ??
[automerge]1598026556[/automerge]


Cheers mate. Much appreciated. I'm meeting the chap later so will update on the chat later.

Had a quote for a 40KVA @ approx £1000/we which the owner surprisingly seemed happy about?

It's unusual for the hire company to provide insurance for any hired in plant, but they may have built the price of the brand of insurance they sell into the price.

That is not the only insurance you need to be concerned about though, your customers insurance company still needs to be informed as this will affect their premesis insurance due to increased risks. Plus the landlord if their is one will be in the same situation, their insurance may be affected.

Without knowing what is included in that price it is hard to comment on it.
Which hire company is that?

Something else you need to consider is phase balancing, you need to keep the three phases reasonably well balanced. Being too far out of balance for too long can damage the generator.

You will also need to consider fault protection, fuses, MCB's etc won't be able to provide fault protection due to the low prospective fault currents that a generator delivers. Most, but not all, hire generators these days incorporate a variable earth leakage relay on their output for this reason, it's up to you to check this and set it suitably for the installation as they are usually set down to minimum as supplied.
You cannot establish the PFC using a Zs test, and a low Zs test result does not mean that disconnection times will be met. These tests are fine on a DNO supply as it will always be capable of delivering the fault current, but with a small generator like this the voltage will droop as the engine bogs down, and probably stalls of/when a fault occurs.

Then there is earthing to consider, the generator will/should have a N-E link fitted which you will need to solidly reference to earth and probably keep separate from the DNO earth that may still be connected currently, but this needs assessment by a competent person.

 

[mr_deep_]

It's unusual for the hire company to provide insurance for any hired in plant, but they may have built the price of the brand of insurance they sell into the price.

That is not the only insurance you need to be concerned about though, your customers insurance company still needs to be informed as this will affect their premesis insurance due to increased risks. Plus the landlord if their is one will be in the same situation, their insurance may be affected.

Without knowing what is included in that price it is hard to comment on it.
Which hire company is that?

Something else you need to consider is phase balancing, you need to keep the three phases reasonably well balanced. Being too far out of balance for too long can damage the generator.

You will also need to consider fault protection, fuses, MCB's etc won't be able to provide fault protection due to the low prospective fault currents that a generator delivers. Most, but not all, hire generators these days incorporate a variable earth leakage relay on their output for this reason, it's up to you to check this and set it suitably for the installation as they are usually set down to minimum as supplied.
You cannot establish the PFC using a Zs test, and a low Zs test result does not mean that disconnection times will be met. These tests are fine on a DNO supply as it will always be capable of delivering the fault current, but with a small generator like this the voltage will droop as the engine bogs down, and probably stalls of/when a fault occurs.

Then there is earthing to consider, the generator will/should have a N-E link fitted which you will need to solidly reference to earth and probably keep separate from the DNO earth that may still be connected currently, but this needs assessment by a competent person.

Thanks Dave - much appreciated

After visiting the site it was deemed impractical to put a generator on site due to being surrounded by residential dwellings.

Hi Simon its me again ? with another electrical query....


I've been called to a bit off an odd job

Supplier has not given a date of when the new meter is being fitted so he spoke to his neighbour about borrowing a supply which she has agreed to.


The plan now is to put the neighbours supply into a Henly and split to feed both shops.


Its just a single phase supply but their really isn't much demand in the take away. So I'm planning to limit the supply to 40 amps through a small DB before his main isolator to limit demand on the neighbours. Also told him to unplug all non essentials.


The neighbours is a newsagents and is also not pulling much power.


Is there any reason why I cant do this?

 

[Lister1987]

I would imagine this hits BS7909 territory as well as 7671 so there will be more hoops involved

 

[Strima]

Borrowing a supply from a neighbour? This could turn into a bit of a legal minefield with regards to billing etc. I would suggest putting in a meter and they agree a price per KW.

 

[suffolkspark]

You know when you get "that" feeling about a job.... I think I'd have that with this one and walk away

 

[SparkyChick]

You know when you get "that" feeling about a job.... I think I'd have that with this one and walk away

Totally agree... it's giving me the heeby jeebies just reading about it.

 

[davesparks]

I would imagine this hits BS7909 territory as well as 7671 so there will be more hoops involved

No, it doesn't come in to BS7909 territory.
[automerge]1598120877[/automerge]

Supplier has not given a date of when the new meter is being fitted so he spoke to his neighbour about borrowing a supply which she has agreed to.

The plan now is to put the neighbours supply into a Henly and split to feed both shops.

Its just a single phase supply but their really isn't much demand in the take away. So I'm planning to limit the supply to 40 amps through a small DB before his main isolator to limit demand on the neighbours. Also told him to unplug all non essentials.

Is there any reason why I cant do this?

How desperate are you for the work? This has the potential to become a lot of hassle for you so I'd only take it on if I needed the money.

You need to assess the demand properly before you design the circuit, don't just guess the load and tell them to 'unplug non-essentials'
What type of takeaway is it? What are the actual loads?
Being a takeaway implies that there will be some sort of cooking appliances, fridges/freezers,

It is perfectly possible to do this, it is after all just designing and installing a distribution circuit just like any other.
You need to try to achieve selectivity in the protective devices as far as practicable, which is not going to happen with a 40A fuse on the circuit. The takeaway will likely be operating at different hours to a news agent so may not always have access to replace the fuse if it should operate.

I would put an Mid certified meter at the supply end, that way both shops will be able to see exactly how much power has been used by each unit and split the bill accordingly.

 

[mr_deep_]

No, it doesn't come in to BS7909 territory.
[automerge]1598120877[/automerge]


How desperate are you for the work? This has the potential to become a lot of hassle for you so I'd only take it on if I needed the money.

You need to assess the demand properly before you design the circuit, don't just guess the load and tell them to 'unplug non-essentials'
What type of takeaway is it? What are the actual loads?
Being a takeaway implies that there will be some sort of cooking appliances, fridges/freezers,

It is perfectly possible to do this, it is after all just designing and installing a distribution circuit just like any other.
You need to try to achieve selectivity in the protective devices as far as practicable, which is not going to happen with a 40A fuse on the circuit. The takeaway will likely be operating at different hours to a news agent so may not always have access to replace the fuse if it should operate.

I would put an Mid certified meter at the supply end, that way both shops will be able to see exactly how much power has been used by each unit and split the bill accordingly.

Thanks Dave

There seems to be 1 switch room with all the meters in there for all the the shops in the block that they all have access to. This is where the connection would be made.

I had a walk around with the owner and calculated 25 amps of essential equipment for the takeaway. Thats why i thought 40 amp DP RCD would be more than sufficient.

I have since turned the job down. I did feel bad for it but there were just too many people involved (client, franchise owner, landlord, supplier and newsagent owner) that I fealt I would have needed to have spoken to and have agreements in place for.

Also someone else mentioned how the Newsagents supply could be at risk if the electric company wasn't happy with them supplying the takeaway due to the possible uoset for why the meter had initially been removed.

It just felt too messy - Im 2 months into setting up on my own and guess dont have the confidence in this scenario to proceed.

I did feel bad for the take away owner as he is obviously loosing earings. Just hope his insurance covers it.

 

[davesparks]

There seems to be 1 switch room with all the meters in there for all the the shops in the block that they all have access to. This is where the connection would be made.

I had a walk around with the owner and calculated 25 amps of essential equipment for the takeaway. Thats why i thought 40 amp DP RCD would be more than sufficient.

Why an RCD? That's just asking for more problems in my opinion, and arguably non compliant.

If its all in one switch room would it have needed any protection? If they were close enough together that 3m(ish) tails were enough to connect the DB of the takeaway to the other supply then you wouldn't technically need an OCPD.

 

[C19rta]

Get some extension leads running from the shop to the takeaway