Testing in domestic (without part p)

[jibspark]

Hi All,

A quick question for you all,

if i perform some minor work (falling outside of Part P) in a domestic premesis can i test it as a qualified spark or do i need to have done my 2391?

I seem to remember someone telling me that i would legally qualified to test anything that doesnt fall under the part p umbrella. Just want to double check.

 

[TonyM58]

No its not the case!!!!

if by 'work' you mean installation work, then if its notifiable, you still have to pre-notify building control i.a.w Part P. although you CAN still test and inspect it yourself and submit the BS7671 certifcates to building control as evidence that the work complied with BS7671 - if the council makes a statement such as "it must be tested by a competent persons scheme member" then personally I would be reperting tem to trading standards as they have no legal authority to require this

If by 'work' you mean just testing and inspecting, then Part P doesnt apply anyway, and aisde from Part P, as i have said the only requirement is that you are competent (which you clearly must be if you are testing for your employer)

too much crredence has been put in the past on C&G 2391 and NICEIC, it shouild be remebered that they are both charities and are also trading partners so they have engineered it so that many people think you HAVE to hold 2391 and be an NIC memeber!

hope this helps

 

[Cirrus]

Thanks Tony. I need to look into it a bit more as do not have a 'relationship' with anyone in buildings control so maybe need to look at what I would need to be notifying them of, when, timescales etc. It's a bit new to me as I want to gradually do more S.E work but have always had the easy side of things doing testing under my employers umbrella. I simply hand them my test sheets and they do the rest.

 

[EasyFox]

Not totally connected with this post but came across it on the SF forum, thought it might be of interest seen as we were on about testing domestics.


"Napit & Niceic are working together to assist the local authority building control association launch a new anitiative aimed at using appropriate members of Full scope competent person schemesto inspect/test work carried out by DIY'ers & unregistered electricians.

The scheme will see electricians on the LABC approved list being contracted to act as agents of the local authority. These contracted electricians will produce a report to confirm that the work inspected complies with the requirements of part P of the building regs.

Using forms developed by the Napit inspection team specifically for this initiative, the contracted electricians will carry out inspections at first fix &/or second fix stages of the installation as appropriate.

Labc director John Neal said:
"these special reports forms cannot & must not be used by anyone other than a LA & are not to be confused with MWC's or EIC's & cannot replace the need for them. Early in 2008 the LABCwill be running a series of training courses, assisted by members of both Napit & Niceic's technical training staff. These courses are for both LABC officers & electricians on the requirements of the new scheme"

Cheif executive of Napit, John Andrews said:
"It is good to see two of the main players in the electrical industry working together with the LABC to improve safety & minimise non-compliance with the building regulations."

Cheif executive of Niceic Jim speirs added:
"Both Napit & Niceic share many of the same goals in supporting the electrical industry, improving safety & protecting consumers from cowboy traders. This is a worthwhile initiative that deserves all our support."

It is hoped that the other three full scope electrical competent person schemes will eventually join Napit & Niceic & support this new initiative."

 

[TonyM58]

interesting.....

Of course this will already be included in the price currently paid to building control? interesting how they talk about full scope as well...... full scope means able to carry any installation task in a domestic premises, which means registration with a competent persons scheme, ie NICEIC's domestic installer scheme. So lets say work is done by an 'unregistered electrican' then a qualified domestic installer can come an inspect their for compliance with Part P. But... NICEIC's Approved Contractors (many of whom are NOT members of competent persons schemes) must surely be classed as 'unregistered elecectricians' for domestic installations and would also need 'inspecting'. the competent persons scheme member could well be one of the non-electricians that i take through the EAL Domestic Electrical Installers course in 7 days who would be inspecting a 30 yr sparks with all of his tickets, including 2391, which the competent persons sceme member is NOT required to hold!


interesting times, ladies and gents.....interesting times

 

[EasyFox]

interesting times, ladies and gents.....interesting times

I thought so & have been in contact with my local BC, so will post here any feed back from them.

 

[alan]

EWR HSR 25 Rule 16 which is a legal document.

Competence = Skill + Knowledge + Experience

 

[electric al]

well said that man tonyM58.All these bodies have a great interest in confounding and complicating
things in order to get credibility for themselves and in turn make money off the honest toil of others.

 

[oldtimer]

Tony M58 just to highlight it is not a legal requirement to join a scheme infact it goes against the European Free Trade Act to have a closed shop in all but name the LBC are walking a thin line here because the could be legally challenged for allowing cartel of scheme providers that do not have a system in place to audit or police members. Edinburgh district council accept certificating from an electrician by what is called "Enquiry" ie a front and back copy of their SJIB card showing their grade and qualifications along with a recent tester calibration certificate. Remember that all a scheme provider member has to do is put their scheme membership number on the cert but this is open to abuse because they can let someone who is not qualified do work and sign it off and there is no one to audit them whether it be the LBC or the Scheme provider.

If you think this does not happen well from what I have seen it is out of control and as one planning guy said to me at least documentation by enquiry you have the evidence in front of you and not a scheme number to refer to.

As for watch this space I hate to be cynical but that efforts of the schemes getting together is to try and plug the holes of a sinking ship remember the house of commons Part P enquiry pulled them up for having a direct conflict of interests so here is and idea a group of sparks get together and pay £50-£100 each to make a legal challenge to a LBC under the European Free Trade Act citing restriction of trade for using a cartel system

 

[DJ Ovengloves]

Holy thread resurrection Batman!

 

[Engineer54]

At the end of the day, to be a competent person you need to be assessed. Either by a self-certification scheme or by a registered organisation. Only then will you be deemed in you're competancy to inspect and test electrical installations.


"are you a member of any electrical scheme... no ok then, where are the certs, oh they're nice green ones & you've filled them out, are you competent to do so?, right ok you have 2330 / NVQ3 work full time as a spark & you have 2381 & 2391, ok so it seems you are competent to undertake & test this kind work"

Qualifications alone do not make a legally accepted competent person thats why we pay megabucks to have this title bestowed upon us.

Yes i agree. you do not have to be a member to be competent to undertake any electrical work as long as you're certs are signed by one. Hence part p which is statutory .

What a complete load of cobblers you've come out with here!!! You seem to have been completely brainwashed by these scam providers. Exactly what assessment do any of these scams make as to the competence of an electrician, look at maybe a CU change, or a socket extension?? lol!!!
Listen, ....if guys stacking shelves at Tesco's a month earlier and have gone through a numbty 5 week course can be routinely deemed as being competent by these scam providers, what does that actually tell you??

A fully trained, time served electrician that holds his papers, is deemed competent by just about everyone and his dog, they shouldn't need to be in any scams registry in the first place!!

 

[oldtimer]

Here Here spent 6 years not 6 week getting my approved grade via my qualifications if this was not so serious it would be a joke the way Schemies are saturating the trade

 

[Engineer54]

Here Here spent 6 years not 6 week getting my approved grade via my qualifications if this was not so serious it would be a joke the way Schemies are saturating the trade

Exactly!! Who's ever heard of anyone actually failing a Scam assessment anyway, if a Electrical Trainee can sail through, what's that have to say about these scam providers assessments!! lol!! And here they all are now beating the Safety Drum for all it's worth, ...hypocrisy at it's worst!!! Scams by name and Scams by Nature!! lol!!

 

[44ALLAN]

Lots of c/units melted since 2007 lol

 

[oldtimer]

I see the March edition of Professional Electrician the Schemies are welcoming the recent changes to Part P mmmmmm

 

[R&M]

No its not the case!!!!

if by 'work' you mean installation work, then if its notifiable, you still have to pre-notify building control i.a.w Part P. although you CAN still test and inspect it yourself and submit the BS7671 certifcates to building control as evidence that the work complied with BS7671 - if the council makes a statement such as "it must be tested by a competent persons scheme member" then personally I would be reperting tem to trading standards as they have no legal authority to require this

If by 'work' you mean just testing and inspecting, then Part P doesnt apply anyway, and aisde from Part P, as i have said the only requirement is that you are competent (which you clearly must be if you are testing for your employer)

too much crredence has been put in the past on C&G 2391 and NICEIC, it shouild be remebered that they are both charities and are also trading partners so they have engineered it so that many people think you HAVE to hold 2391 and be an NIC memeber!

hope this helps

Dear Mr Tony

I believe this statement is not very accurate, City & Guilds has noting to do with NICEIC, and they are completely two different entities.

Best regards
R&M