The great pat testing scam | Page 2 | on ElectriciansForums

Discuss The great pat testing scam in the Electrical Testing & PAT Testing Forum area at ElectriciansForums.net

Unfortunatley when you pat test you say the item has passed on that day if it goes wrong the next week they would probaly be able to escape responsibility by saying that it was to a suitable standard when they tested it and that the fault became present afterwards.

When the PAT testing requirements were introduced and believed and porported to be a legal requirement alot of the draconian guiidelines laid down by the HSE were boardering on unworkable I had a number of conversations with the HSE regarding test intervals and was told that the person carrying out the testing should recommend a test/inspection interval suitable for the duty of the equipment an example used during one conversation was a floor polisher which it was suggested may require an inspection interval of as little as 6 weeks and if a incident occured within that time and 6 weeks was deemed to long the HSE would prosecute the inspector if the site owner didn't get it checked inline with the inspectors recommendation then liability passed to the site owner

Thank god they changed the requirements

Unfortunately it would appear a PAT sticker seems to overrule common sense these days and indicates to some people that the equipment is safe even if it damaged between tests

Can we not bring back common sense or is it to late with this nanny state
 
Last edited:
This kind of cost cutting seems to be the modern way of doing things, in every industry; gone are the days you could make an appointment with the bank manager and discuss all your financial needs with someone who knew what they were talking about, now you have to speak to someone in a call centre who has had a morning's training on how to relay the information their computer has just given them.
Sadly I can't imagine this situation improving, if anything it will get worse.

Whilst I agree with the rest of your post I have Got to take umbridge with you on that comment; within the banking industry there are so many regulations and restrictions on the call centre operatives that this isn't true at all ~ 6 weeks initial training, on the job mentoring & call coaching at all times.
My Mrs works for one of the only banks not needed to be bailed out, and she is 'coached'* on calls at random (* Basically a euphamism for trying to catch her out) she finds that referals from local branches have basic errors that she would get disciplined for, and any new directives have to be implimented without mssing key phrases (that's why when you call you get a load of whaffle that no one really listens to).


When the PAT testing requirements were introduced and believed and porported to be a legal requirement alot of the draconian guiidelines laid down by the HSE were boardering on unworkable I had a number of conversations with the HSE regarding test intervals and was told that the person carrying out the testing should recommend a test/inspection interval suitable for the duty of the equipment an example used during one conversation was a floor polisher which it was suggested may require an inspection interval of as little as 6 weeks and if a incident occured within that time and 6 weeks was deemed to long the HSE would prosecute the inspector if the site owner didn't get it checked inline with the inspectors recommendation then liability passed to the site owner

Still; the person using the equipment has a duty of care to visually check the lead each time they use it.

Thank god they changed the requirements

Unfortunately it would appear a PAT sticker seems to overrule common sense these days and indicates to some people that the equipment is safe even if it damaged between tests

Can we not bring back common sense or is it to late with this nany state

Amen to that,
 
Whilst I agree with the rest of your post I have Got to take umbridge with you on that comment; within the banking industry there are so many regulations and restrictions on the call centre operatives that this isn't true at all ~ 6 weeks initial training, on the job mentoring & call coaching at all times.
My Mrs works for one of the only banks not needed to be bailed out, and she is 'coached'* on calls at random (* Basically a euphamism for trying to catch her out) she finds that referals from local branches have basic errors that she would get disciplined for, and any new directives have to be implimented without mssing key phrases (that's why when you call you get a load of whaffle that no one really listens to).
OK you caught me - 'a morning' was an exaggeration and maybe I could have used a better example, but the point is after a number of years doing a job you can expect someone to know what they're talking about, whereas now (particularly larger) companies treat their staff as disposable because they know they can replace them within a few weeks, with someone with no experience.

I have worked in an insurance call centre myself - I think it was about 2 weeks of training, then we were given a photo album full of prompt cards to read out parrot-fashion, and sat in front of a computer which could basically only be used to send generic letters, and draws a graph telling the manager what percentage of your day you've been on the phone and how much time you've spent on toilet breaks.
Many of the people i was working with couldn't care less about the customers and would fob them off with silly excuses to get them off the phone as quickly as possible to make their graph look good, which it seemed to me defeated the point of them being there, just like the guys who do a 1 day course and go out slapping stickers on 100 appliances an hour without even looking at them properly.
 
I find some of these comments very interesting, if a little short-sighted. I have the unenviable task of carrying out PAT work on a regular basis and I would like to speak on behalf of the hitherto unrepresented. Firstly, it is unreasonable to criticise them for lack of experience and qualification when all that is needed to carry out this work is the City and Guilds 2377 Certificate of Competence. This requires a very high percentage to pass the examination and I know of many who have had to look elsewhere following their repeated lack of success in attempting to secure the qualification. Is it their fault that qualification does not require years of training, endless exams and assessments? No. I know only too well that there are those who do little more than slap on a sticker but I feel that to tar them all with the same brush is somewhat harsh. The example of the tester being criticised for doing nothing more than applying the stickers to ceiling-mounted equipment, when he had already stated that it was purely a visual inspection, is unfounded. A visual inspection is exactly that, and does not require opening up or even unplugging the appliance, where conditions dictate that this be the case. As for risk assessment, we all know what H&S regulations mean and I would agree that if he had been told not to work from access equipment then he should not do so. As for planting "modified" equipment to catch someone out? Nothing better to do, perhaps. I trust that the time taken attempting to trip others up will not be billed to the client?

Then there is the issue of cost. The so-called "50p a test merchants", cowboys, jokers or whatever else people choose to call them are not all charging this paltry sum because they feel like it. There are those who, admittedly, go in purely on price but the majority of them have been driven to it by a combination of factors including the cheap and cheerful operators but, just as importantly, an increasingly cost-conscious client base who will quite happily play one company off against another until a bargain-basement price is agreed. That, coupled with an employer who demands more and more work from his testers in less and less time has, undoubtedly led to some corner-cutting. Add to this the fact that the reduced cost per test means that they are having to do more work, just to stand still, and you will see why we are finding it very hard to compete on a level footing. As one contributor has suggested, the customer is usually happy with everything being "stickered up" for the right price. Unfortunately, there is an element of truth in this and many of them do not consider the serious implications as deeply as they do the cost. And remember, the company agrees the amount per test, the engineer receives far less!

As a company, we perform visual and full checks and change plugs/fuses included in the cost. We provide the customer with a detailed breakdown of the testing carried out by location/item, with a full list of failures being issued before we leave site and we are charging nowhere near ÂŁ2 per test, nor have we for some time. Had we continued to charge at our previous rates, we would have sunk without trace long ago. Did we instigate this plummet in rates? No, our hand was forced and we are all suffering as a result, not just the "real" electricians. Given the time and fair remuneration, any PAT engineer would be happy to do the job 100% correctly. Unfortunately many of them are lucky to earn ÂŁ50.00 per day. Hardly a get-rich-quick scheme, is it? Place the blame where you see fit, we are all entitled to our opinion, but don't just drop the blame on the guy in the firing line. Look a little deeper into the cause.

Oh, and by the way, we aren't allowed to work overhead either!
 
I have read your post and agree with none of it.
I strongly disagree with your suggestion that a visual inspection is purely sticking a sticker on an appliance still plugged in. As a minimum it would involve checking the appliance for physical damage,checking the lead for the same,and removing the plug to check for secure cord grip,correct fuse and correct connection.
I can assure you that this clown did not carry out any of those checks.
As for 'booby trapping' an appliance to catch these guys out I would not refute the suggestion that this was a rather underhand tactic and in fact none of my business. But the fact that these guys put a passed sticker on a potentially dangerous appliance confirmed my belief that they are nothing more than rip off merchants.It may well be that you yourself do a good and proper job and it would be wrong to tar all with the same brush...but from what I've seen in this and other establishments that is the case.
The suggestion in your post that having to cut costs in order to compete for work gives some a valid reason to cut corners is a bit of an eye-opener considering the test is supposed to be about safety.....there is nothing in your post to make me change my opinion that pat testing is a scam....if anything it re-inforces it. Thankyou for confirming what I already knew.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
BOC I don't see how you have offered any reasonable defence yourself and others involved in cheap PAT testing. Attempting to justify your own cheap rates and poor quality is because of others doesn't put you in a good light

You have only reiterated what has already been said in the rest of this thread

The way your method of PAT testing is going you may as well just supply a load of stickers to the customer and let him do his own PAT testing if attaching stickers is the only pre requisite. If being cheap is your primary objective to compete then you must obviously accept that sooner or later somebody will be injured or killed as you cannot afford to do the work properly.

Does your "increasingly cost-conscious client base" know and understand their liability and what they are getting for their money and the H&S implications if it all goes wrong

The issue of working overhead is obviously due to the fact that the cost of an appropriate course and the extra insurance cannot be funded by your paltery piece work rate

As for your modified equipment comment it just shows that your visual inspection it not worth the effort and apparently sound equipment can have faults

I just hope your PAT testing does not result in injury to some one as I assume you accept that a room in one of Her Majesty's Hotels may be the outcome
 
I agree with BOC in that it is not the 'fault' of the tester that years of training aren't required, although I would disagree that "[C&G 2377] requires a very high percentage to pass the examination" considering all the answers are in the book which you have in front of you in the exam.

I agree with wirepuller in that a 'visual' (or more accurately an 'all senses except taste') inspection consists of much more than just checking the appliance is there - without doing any testing the cable can be checked for breaks, fraying of sheathing, and makeshift repairs, the plugtop can be checked for damage, condition of connections (including polarity) and fuse, extension cables can be checked for evidence of overheating, and any appliance can be given a gentle shake to check for rattling (I once failed a fan heater because there was a giant paper clip in it which I couldn't get out).
Portable Appliance Testing is similar to testing an installation but on a smaller scale; no 'proper electrician' would sign a periodic as 'visual only' after walking into a property and just checking the installation is there - I would consider that to be recklessly irresponsible. People can and have been killed from absence of earthing in an installation (what is essentially test method 2 is the first test required on a class 1 appliance), but obviously after 1 day someone wouldn't appreciate what is involved in testing an installation.

I suppose the solution to guaranteeing competence would be for the 2377 to be only offered as an additional course to those that have already completed the 2360 or 2330 or gold card holders.
 
Bit of an update.
Today I was at the school doing some minor repairs and the caretaker pointed out a socket in the corridor which was almost entirly black with carbon scorch marks. It seems a cleaner plugged in a floor polisher and as she did so there was a loud bang from the plug and she recieved a shock...(not serious luckily). Upshot was that the cord grip on the plug was not secure and the single wires were pulling out and something shorted......Guess what was stuck on the appliance plug??....answers to me on the back of a ten pound note please.

The caretaker said that the testers had claimed 6000 appliances tested,there were 3 blokes and they were there 3 days.
Now if you allow them a standard 8hr day....(somewhat generous as their vans were gone by 3-4pm when I saw them)...that makes 666 appliances per man per day.....or one every 43 seconds.
Not bad going I reckon.
 
:mad::mad::mad::mad::mad:

I'm all for goin round and doin em over.....what ya reckon????


Seriously though, it makes my blood boil does this. What chance does an honest reliable spark have with complete (insert own description here) like this on the loose. I gave up on PAT a long time ago, only do it for a few regulars now who know the score and are happy to pay me to do it correctly.
 
Now if you allow them a standard 8hr day....(somewhat generous as their vans were gone by 3-4pm when I saw them)...that makes 666 appliances per man per day.....or one every 43 seconds.

How significant is that number!:eek:

:mad::mad::mad::mad::mad:
I'm all for goin round and doin em over.....what ya reckon????

Seriously though, it makes my blood boil does this. What chance does an honest reliable spark have with complete (insert own description here) like this on the loose. I gave up on PAT a long time ago, only do it for a few regulars now who know the score and are happy to pay me to do it correctly.

I'm of the same mind Ben, but quite honestly the lack of any integrity evident in the actions of these 'testers' jsut makes me despair. Regardless of the pressures for maximising profits and the threat of competition these companies have a duty of care to ensure that any safety checks are just that; Safe. I hope (as a company) that they are reported andt at least struck off of the approved register at (any) council. Trouble is this company will, likely as not, blame the individuals even though we all know the pressure was on them to "get the job done" (although if these guys had any respectability then the job would have been done properly):mad:
~ probably another example of a certificate being placed before experience and passed as competency.:(
 
Bunch of total chancers there is no way on this planet that 1 man could test 666 appliances per day.

On PATs I try to aim for 10 items per hour 80 per day and that can be hard enough to get.
 

Reply to The great pat testing scam in the Electrical Testing & PAT Testing Forum area at ElectriciansForums.net

News and Offers from Sponsors

  • Article
Join us at electronica 2024 in Munich! Since 1964, electronica has been the premier event for technology enthusiasts and industry professionals...
    • Like
Replies
0
Views
373
  • Sticky
  • Article
Good to know thanks, one can never have enough places to source parts from!
Replies
4
Views
938
  • Article
OFFICIAL SPONSORS These Official Forum Sponsors May Provide Discounts to Regular Forum Members - If you would like to sponsor us then...
Replies
0
Views
1K

Similar threads

Hi all, We have a limited in house PAT testing requirement and were advised that the TIS700 fitted our needs. The unit works fine for 110V and...
Replies
0
Views
1K
I used to do a lot of this. My go - to was testing at the load side of isolators etc where possible. Although of course you'll find plenty of...
Replies
5
Views
1K

OFFICIAL SPONSORS

Electrical Goods - Electrical Tools - Brand Names Electrician Courses Green Electrical Goods PCB Way Electrical Goods - Electrical Tools - Brand Names Pushfit Wire Connectors Electric Underfloor Heating Electrician Courses
These Official Forum Sponsors May Provide Discounts to Regular Forum Members - If you would like to sponsor us then CLICK HERE and post a thread with who you are, and we'll send you some stats etc

YOUR Unread Posts

This website was designed, optimised and is hosted by untold.media Operating under the name Untold Media since 2001.
Back
Top