The MCS farce

[SRE]

This one was free, and delivered bay German experts!!!Product training day for MCS accredited PV installers

• A one day event featuring product training directly from module manufacturer SANYO and inverter manufacturer SMA
• Additional presentation from CREST (Centre for Renewable Energy Systems Technology) on the benefits of type testing to reduce PV system risk
• There will be NO CHARGE for this.

As did Segen, Krannich and probably other wholesalers too - but I don't want a narrow range of pv sales's pitches, however technical they are. I and many others want impartial training, discussion and market insight.

Another training session to help you get through G83 more easily - looked really good - £350 for 5 hours one of which was lunch!

 

[SRE]

It's disapointing that there are not spot checks on at least 10% of installs and enforcement action, that is the only way to weed out the cowboys..

and fines for repeated offenders, mug shots on forums!!!

 

[MorganPVI]

Public ridicule is the best form of punishment imo.

 

[series530]

Let me offer a customer perspective:

Firstly, the forums DO help customers who are willing to search, read, digest and not just go for the lowest price installation.

No matter what product or service is on offer there will always be a percentage of the population who will purchase purely upon price. As the economic crisis takes more of a grip and the use of the internet becomes more wide spread, price will start to become more and more of a differentiating factor. This does and will continue to breed bottom feeders who routinely offer inferior products and who will cut corners on safety or service. You will never separate those customers by restricting accreditation. They will always go for the lowest cost and most respectable installers wont be able to make a decent enough margin on that playing field.

I may be in the minority; who knows? I'm degree qualified in electrical engineering and have been in the service side (applications support) of the silicon chip testing business for the best part of 30 years. As an engineer, it is in my nature to gather data, to analyse that data and to make a decision based upon data. Being out in the customer domain and having been commercially aware for the best part of my life, I can normally sniff out the spivs and those who I think are being wide of the mark. If I am told something and it doesn't make sense I will seek clarification either from the source or via forums like this. Knowledge, to me, is everything.

Having gained that knowledge the decision process can start. Cost is important to me and, in the PV industry, it is far to easy to take a short term view. This is where many customer fall down. They get seduced by the KWp on offer and get hood winked by the SAP calculation (which isn't always properly applied). They are also sucked in by the pay back time - a time that is far beyond the life of the average supplying company and also subject to "well, it wasn't very sunny last year so how can you expect to get the yield we told you" guff. Savvy people, I feel, need to take a longer term view with PV. I am convinced that by paying that bit more, the annual yield from a site may well be higher and the ROI will equal out. In addition, once paid off, the installation is generating a rather nice annuity far in excess of that which a cheap install can offer.

I am not the sort of person who wants to squeeze the last penny of discount. While I cannot condone profiteering I respect the fact that the average PV company has a certain infrastructure cost, has to pay salaries and taxes and has to operate safely. The end price has to be a win for both the customer and the supplier. If it isn't, one or other suffers.

I hope that I am not one of a fractional percent of the customer base. Perhaps I am and should be avoided, don't be afraid to tell me! I sincerely hope that there are enough customers like me to give decent PV companies a reasonable living.

You will always have bottom feeders both as customers and suppliers. For the most part, they deserve each other. The trick is to suss out customers who are operating at that level and to minimise the effort that you invest with them (but remaining polite). Focus upon the people who are more reasonable and offer a decent service to them. I hope there are enough of those around - the FIT should keep the numbers buoyant for the next few years at least.

Restricting accreditation leads to a cartel - not good in any industry and certainly anti competitive. Just focus upon your target market and let free market economies sort the wheat from the chaff.

Ian

 

[furrypants]

Very good post hits the nail on the head from a customers point of view. The one thing i would add is that guarantees are a very important part of the services, piece of mind cannot be underestimated.

 

[SolarCity]

Great post, Ian. I do agree with a lot of what you say but unfortunately not every customer is as savvy as you. The MCS should be protecting those that aren't particularly clued up on the industry. After all, why else is it there?

Contractors cutting corners is not something that we should all just accept. In fact, in such a relatively young industry, it is a tragic admission of failure. The cost of electrical work 15-20 years ago was far more than it is now. Why? Because there were far fewer of us out there. This situation has changed in the last 10 years or so, particularly since the introduction of Part P. The market is now swamped with '1 week wonders' that, against all common sense, are now NICEIC accredited. This has led to a plumetting in prices and, sadly, standards. I have sent photos of shoddy work by NICEIC electricians to Professional Electrician that simply could not have happened 15 years ago.

The customer sees an NICEIC badge an assumes, naturally, that they will get a good job. Unfortunately, not so.

When you restrict accreditation based on standards then this cannot possibly be a bad thing - the effects of not doing so is plain for most to see.

 

[SRE]

I had an interesting conversation this week with an installer who told me he avoided customers who sounded like they knew what they were talking about like the plague because they were "difficult". I have to say I was a bit gobsmacked - they are the easiest customers to sell to. The difference in how much customers are "switched on" about what they want and where they want it since the start of the year is phenomenal and to be honest makes our life easier because the customer can make an informed decision rather than being sold a system.

Most of our customers are like Ian and long may it stay like that!

 

[SolarCity]

I agree with that, SRE. We have the totally reverse opinion to the installer you are talking about. My favourite customers, and my favourite surveys, are from guys that have a good knowledge of PV - especially the customers that have a background in electronics or similar.

I think it tells you a lot about the other installer in my opinion.

 

[MorganPVI]

Customers like Ian are our firms favorite too.

The majority of customers it seems are not too technical and can easliy be hoodwinked by a smooth talking salesman using the lowest cost. Round here the Ringwood based firms pay subbies £450 to install a 4kw system - a complete install.

 

[SRE]

Customers like Ian are our firms favorite too.

The majority of customers it seems are not too technical and can easliy be hoodwinked by a smooth talking salesman using the lowest cost. Round here the Ringwood based firms pay subbies £450 to install a 4kw system - a complete install.

Roof work and electrics? Who does the paperwork?

 

[series530]

Very good post hits the nail on the head from a customers point of view. The one thing i would add is that guarantees are a very important part of the services, piece of mind cannot be underestimated.

Too true, I missed that point in my post. FWIW, one of the must have's in choosing an installer for my system was an independent insurance backed guarantee. Our's has a 10 year independent warranty and that should give us peace of mind for a decade even if the installer retires to the Bahamas and sells his company to Focus Do it All (choice of company illustrates a point)

Everything costs, nothing is free, but we buy a package when we sign on that dotted line. I am willing to pay a reasonable amount for that package and the added service that I hope it will provide.

The bottom feeders will offer an insurance through their own company. As they sell the benefits of their warranty you can sense them figuring out "the next best thing" and their exit strategy from PV and into that. You can just imagine the conversation in a couple of years when the inverter is clapped out and the installers plush office is now a Chinese take away.

Ian

 

[edexlab]

The most annoying thing I find is the MCS inspectors I've met only wanted to check the labelling on the install both were ex plumbers
but they said they were dual trained and therefore could assess electrical installs , neither wanted to see any isolators or anything open as long as the cables looked neat ,equipment looked level,labelled, seals etc they were happy, although they did ask why we did a couple of things which I pointed out were either manufacturers instructions or in DTI guide
I know that they assume you have the relevant qualifications/experience but like others I have seen pics of installs by accredited installers totally disregarding the need for isolators/correct mounting and spacing of inverters and accessories and spaghetti cabling incorrect cable sizing etc
Mcs is a good thing but like all things nowadays
its a case of having the correct paperwork to cover yourself after the fact (closing the barn door after the horse has bolted )
but little is done to ensure that systems are installed correctly (prevention is better than cure)

 

[The Solar King]

Well I think I'll have my six penneth worth. Nearly all the concerns mentioned here are absolutely right. First off I am not an electrician, but please anyone who is, is more than welcome to give us the once over. Yes, I work with sub-contractors, the same ones I have worked with for a long time in my other business who I trust implicitly. Yes, we have done a deal over funding training. I am already MCS registered for another technology and am going through an extensive process to add PV (complete very soon). Be absolutely certain that what ever we do, what ever we offer will be as it should be. Having just about lost the will to live configuring assurance on roof loading, wind loading etc, you better believe it. It will be me who holds the MCS accreditation. Maybe I am different, but I am only interested in best practice. Who is the most important person in my business? My customers. All of this is a no brainer if you are serious and investing your own money.

The problems with MCS are that conditions in the market pace have overtaken it. It needs to catch up and catch up fast. There is undoubtedly abuse of it by large (and not so large) businesses at the disreputable end of things. It staggers me that for inspection I can nominate where we go. So I could do 499 non-compliant crap installations and one compliant one. Every installation needs to be available and one or two selected by your accreditation body. This should be a condition for customers of accepting FIT payments or RHI on Solar Thermal when it comes in. All complaints about breaches of REAL should be investigated. There should be spot audits of this code. If you are found in breach, you should initially be fined to cover the cost of audit and if in breach again, have your MCS accreditation revoked. This should be like bankruptcy, so if you are a director of a revoked business you cannot set up again using a different name.

Issues of training are important, as is its quality. There is a place for detailed technical training and a place for what I would describe as management of renewables technology. I have extensive work based knowledge and experience, but like any sensible person know my own limitations. I have undergone training and self education to ensure I can undertake those aspects of the business I need to do, and also to understand what it is my sub-contracted electrician needs to do. All businesses can achieve this in different ways using different systems. What is important is that they achieve it and customers get what they are entitled to.

At the end of the day grumping among ourselves will change nothing. There is an ongoing review of MCS, if you don't like something, tell them. As far as training is concerned, the major electrical PV courses will be aligned with National Occupational Standards very shortly which should provide some improvement.

I appreciate there a quite a few out there who may not agree with me, but it is one reason why we have forums. Incidentally I have found this particular forum useful in advancing my own education to achieve my goals as some of the training available has been, how can I put it nicely, crap.

 

[sbrown2]

An interesting thread and I hope I'm not butting in, but I need help. I/we have competent person and MCS assessment at the end of october. I am in partnership with a NHBC builder and we have installed air source heat pumps and air circulation systems in his properties under the auspices of building control. We are now taking the next steps to the MCS accreditation.
I am currently in the midst of creating the quality manual. Is this as difficult as it seems or do you have to be careful not to overcomplicate the process? I have H&S documentation ie policy, risk assessments, method statements etc but do these have to be lengthy documents.
Another major concern is training, do you have to do a specifiaac course for heat pumps and then solar and then plumbing etc. This seems excessive and expensive. I keep being told that thousands of people are racing into the renewable market I can only assume the preparation of the quality manuals and paperwork is not that exhaustive.
Any help and advice would be gratefully received

Regards

sbrown2