The point of being qualified?

[DoubleInsulated]

Hello all.

Been a sparky since I left school (which is rather a long time ago). 17th Edition, and currently not planning to bother with the 18th. You get to a point in life where hoop jumping becomes tiresome!

My point is this. I occasionally work for a local security company as a sub contractor (usually first fixing CCTV for him) and he FREQUENTLY installs his own electrical points using his totally untrained engineers.

Now this can be extra lighting, sockets, or altering existing installations. I can tell you now, it NEVER complies with regs.

I do not certify (mainly because I just don't do enough sparking these days). Therefore, I usually refuse to do his electrical work.

On the occasions I have done his electrical installations, it is on the provision that he gets the work certified by a third party at the end of the job. He usually then gets more money from the client for this testing..... then NEVER does it.
This might be private work, but it's frequently for the local council.

I try to cover myself by highlighting this work must be certified on my invoices (it's usually only alterations within a room or similar), and also email him and relevant members of his company, reminding them they must certify. But they don't.

I now will not work for him.

My point is, this man, and his (massively untrained) staff frequently break installation regulations and get away with it.
I have known him install fire alarm systems in public buildings that are poorly designed, untested and do not comply in the slightest.

Who cares? Nobody ever pulls him up on it. Unless he is part of a testing body... who is ever going to challenge him?

Yes, if a fire happens or God forbid, someone is injured or killed, he may get caught, but it's a slim 'if'.

Frustrates me. Who can you tell? Who cares?
I anonymously emailed the local building inspector last year regarding a poor fire alarm installation and they did zip.

It's wrong on all levels. Only those willing to pay to be inspected, then get pulled up for poor practices.

I would be interested to know your opinions

 

[Lister1987]

Part of the issue is your shouting in the wrong ears. Fire regulatory reform order compliance Is the responsibility of the local fire and rescue service authority, not council, not LABC and not CIEH/HSE.

Shout in the right ears and you'll get somewhere.

 

[timhoward]

Part of the issue is your shouting in the wrong ears. Fire regulatory reform order compliance Is the responsibility of the local fire and rescue service authority, not council, not LABC and not CIEH/HSE.

Shout in the right ears and you'll get somewhere.

Agree. I have managed to get the local station officer at the fire brigade interested in a couple of truly appalling fire alarms installations before now and follow up has occurred. Anywhere where people sleep get's their ears pricking up very quickly.

 

[DoubleInsulated]

Tried the local fire officer. He directed me to the building inspector ?
Probably because they were building an extension at the time

 

[Vortigern]

Accepted this is the norm SNAFU. Yet I choose to be part of the solution not part of the problem. To achieve this I keep abreast and qualified in best practices and conform to regs/statute. At least I know that one house or office at a time I am doing work that is kosher. As to the rogues, I have long given up decrying the state of some wiring I just get on with it. I don't even bother to tell the client, except in the sparsest terms, what is wrong with the installation, just what needs to be done.

 

[smash_]

Tell the client, I’m sure if they knew that the system wasn’t fit for purpose they’d do something.
Its them paying for it and putting trust in the people who install it.

 

[DoubleInsulated]

He knew the client, and could literally smooth talk himself out of any corner.
He sacked the 2 guys installing the system and totally blamed them. Neither of them were alarm installers, and had been hired with the promise of full trained (which he never gives). Turns over a mental amount of staff because he constantly hires unqualified chumps.

When he does hire guys who know what they are doing, he either upsets them with his bodging, or doesn't pay them. Not a pleasant guy.

Anyway... not much I can do except stay away.

 

[Mike Johnson]

Alarm manufactures live on reputation, they may be interested in your observations, a carefully worded enquiry could being results.

 

[Dustydazzler]

Surely fire alarm systems should be installed and inspected by registered contractors. ?

 

[DoubleInsulated]

Well I turned up to have a look. First thing? The installer guy had over-tightened the mains connector block on the alarm PCB and snapped it off the board.
So, he SOLDERED A 2.5mm T&E to the board PCB tracks directly ??? (got a photo somewhere).

That was bad enough, but then I realised no local isolator. Yep.... directly off a J401 JB on the shop ring main.
So PCB fused at 32A and not on it own dedicated supply. No local keyswitch isolator. That sums it up.

None of the FP earths had been linked at any call point, just snipped off.

Not one call point was at the same height as another. The call points in the warehouse had been 'glued' to the RSJ stanchions using silicon.

Cables were literally clipped every 2 metres. Just thrown over the suspended ceiling in the shop, no containment.

Plastic trunking across the ceilings in offices to smoke detectors. No metal cable clips within.

You could remove literally any smoke head and the system would not flag a fault or missing head.

Stand in the warehouse, trigger the system and you hear nothing. Not even a beacon or two to indicate a fire to the forklift drivers.

Any connections between cables done using plastic connector blocks (usually stuffed in a galv conduit box with no lid because they could not fit it all in).

No design paperwork. No zone plan. No test sheets. No commissioning paperwork.

I could go on.... it was horrific. And he still does it.

 

[Mike Johnson]

All the above should be put in writing, given to the client's director responsible for "Health and Safety" copied to "Trading Standards" and the "Fire Officer" they are then obliged to do something about it before it becomes a major incident, you don't even have to put your name on it, just a concerned electrician will do.

The European way of shrugging the shoulders whilst pursing your lips and blowing has become the norm in the UK over the last few years, perhaps that will change and we will no longer say "not my problem" and walk away leaving a client oblivious to the danger his operatives are in.

 

[GBDamo]

He knew the client, and could literally smooth talk himself out of any corner.
He sacked the 2 guys installing the system and totally blamed them. Neither of them were alarm installers, and had been hired with the promise of full trained (which he never gives). Turns over a mental amount of staff because he constantly hires unqualified chumps.

When he does hire guys who know what they are doing, he either upsets them with his bodging, or doesn't pay them. Not a pleasant guy.

Anyway... not much I can do except stay away.

There's a four letter word that describes that kind of person but I'm too polite to use it?.

 

[GBDamo]

Well I turned up to have a look. First thing? The installer guy had over-tightened the mains connector block on the alarm PCB and snapped it off the board.
So, he SOLDERED A 2.5mm T&E to the board PCB tracks directly ??? (got a photo somewhere).

That was bad enough, but then I realised no local isolator. Yep.... directly off a J401 JB on the shop ring main.
So PCB fused at 32A and not on it own dedicated supply. No local keyswitch isolator. That sums it up.

None of the FP earths had been linked at any call point, just snipped off.

Not one call point was at the same height as another. The call points in the warehouse had been 'glued' to the RSJ stanchions using silicon.

Cables were literally clipped every 2 metres. Just thrown over the suspended ceiling in the shop, no containment.

Plastic trunking across the ceilings in offices to smoke detectors. No metal cable clips within.

You could remove literally any smoke head and the system would not flag a fault or missing head.

Stand in the warehouse, trigger the system and you hear nothing. Not even a beacon or two to indicate a fire to the forklift drivers.

Any connections between cables done using plastic connector blocks (usually stuffed in a galv conduit box with no lid because they could not fit it all in).

No design paperwork. No zone plan. No test sheets. No commissioning paperwork.

I could go on.... it was horrific. And he still does it.

Don't lynch me but is there any requirement for a CPC in a 24V circuit?

Don't do fire alarms, a known unknown.

 

[telectrix]

Don't lynch me but is there any requirement for a CPC in a 24V circuit?

Don't do fire alarms, a known unknown.

cpc's are always connected i fire alarms. detector bases even have a terminal for connection. not sure what funnction it serves regarding the alarm.

 

[DoubleInsulated]

I don't think the earth is a requirement, but to my mind, it's a 'correct installation' thing.
How long does it take really to sleeve and tidy up the earth.

The bigger issue was that the clump handed snipping of the earth had lead to damaging the cores. Snipping the earth off flush with the end of the FP outer sheath, left the sharp earth between the cores.

 

[telectrix]

thing is, with FP200, the cpc is useless for stripping off the sheath, so even a plumber or a builder would realise that it had an alternative purpose.