Thermodynamic Solar Panels

[MCS Renewables]

For that sort of money you would be better of with a 3kW solar PV system , with a 20 year FIT tariff and just leave your immersion on for the hot water. We all know PV works!

There is also a discussion at very high level that this may thermodynamic technology may be re-classed as a "transpired solar collector" which will probably take it out of the RHI. The RHI is also not set in stone until the day starts and I would not trust the people in charge to alter things at the last minute.

Being as the next big "no win no fee" legal challenges are likely to be going after solar installers who oversold and overpromised on predictions I would not install any technology I was not 100% confident in. There is a solicitors advert to this affect every weekend in the better Sunday papers !

Selling this technology based on 20 year RHI returns which may be only be seven years or no payment at all would seem like opening myself up to massive problems I dont need.

 

[toomanylogins]

Hello,

Its Paul from complete picture here. To clarify for everybody this is an air source heat pump the only difference is instead of a fan coil unit you have a solar radiator on the roof. Therefore it's quieter (This will be a big deal in ther future) and you get a slightly better COP as you don't have a fan and you got a larger surface area to collect the heat. Energie.pt the manufacturer have some information on their website.

You can use our EN12831 calculation software to do the calculation. The only thing you need to know to calculate the RHI is the COP and the output temperature you are using for hot water and heating to calculate the savings. As with all heat pumps they work better with underfloor heating and good insulation.

RHI is a payment for generating your heat with renewable technology so in this case it's the electricity you save to generate the same amount of heat. RHI is using wind as the comparative case.

In my opinion these are probably directly comparable to a ground source heat pump in terms of efficiency COP of 4+ and probably cheaper to install. They only really make sense if you are off the gas grid.

regards
Paul

 

[The Solar King]

All well and good Paul, but where is the real life validated performance for cold climates? How is this going to work in winter with a water inlet temperature of 4deg C and an average ambient air temperature of 8 degrees regularly falling to below zero at the very time you require space heating and hot water?

Opinions and probably are no good. Evidence based real life data are good. Where is it?

 

[toomanylogins]

Solar King, Couldn't agree more. The BRE have a database of tested heatpumps where the cop has been measured but the take-up by manufacturers is relatively poor. Similarly we have e-mailed all of the MCS manufacturers on more than one occasion for inclusion of their data in the software but we get nowhere. A level playing field of test results under real-life conditions would be very useful. The criteria for inclusion in the MCS list should include performance testing. Also why have we got an MCS list and the BRE list, typical govt nonsense.

Apparently the thermodynamic panels are being used extensively in Scandinavia so some test data must be available.

 

[The Solar King]

Apparently I won the jackpot in the lottery, but can't find my ticket. It must be available somewhere.

Why is this equipment registered with MCS as solar thermal when it is clearly a heat pump? Could it be to avoid the performance criteria that now cover them?

 

[toomanylogins]

The mcs classification is wrong my understanding is it has been automatically included using the European classification. I don't think this will be a benefit as they will not be able to take advantage of the COP unless it's a heat pump.

I've been googling for an hour can't find any Scandinavians info.

 

[Gavin A]

The MCS classification is wrong... well maybe, but if that's the classification, then that's what it will be getting paid under until it changes the classification, unless you're saying that RHI will accept other EU certification instead of MCS for products, which I'm not aware is the case.

 

[Berneray]

Here is an interesting thing. Went to see a potential customer last week. She'd been quoted £11500 for a 4kwp system with Voltage Optimisation and Passive Systems. To fund the deal she'd agreed to take out a £11000 loan from the companies "partnership" with Barclays...

As we are a small company with no access to inhouse finance I suggested she'd be better off contacting Energy Savings Trust and get one of their advisors out. In her post code she'd be entitled to an int free loan of £4000.

Long story short. The advisor was out today......and here is the twist....suggested she look at thermodynamic panels...as a form of heating both water and her home. She is out in the country burning oil. For these she was told the interest free loan was up to £10,000 as they are heat producing....

Like a lot of the folk here we are sitting back awaiting more data on these panels. But from my own local knowledge.....most of the big national companies with their cold calling armies are moving over from pv...where there a no margins any longer....and in thermodynamic panels...

But I can't make the figures work.....If you are on mains gas...with a relatively new combi boiler.....electric showers and cold heat washing machine and dishwasher.....the payback time for one of these systems...even with RHI...must be 20 years....

Any thoughts..

 

[toomanylogins]

But I can't make the figures work.....If you are on mains gas...with a relatively new combi boiler.....electric showers and cold heat washing machine and dishwasher.....the payback time for one of these systems...even with RHI...must be 20 years..

Thats the idea its not supposed to be viable. The Green deal calculation would be recommending topping up the loft insulation and cavity wall under these circumstances. Heat pumps are only going to be viable off the gas grid or for refurbishment when the heating system needs replacing anyway.

 

[United Solar SO]

does anybody here have an idea about thermodynamic solar panels?

At United Solar Solutions we have a long list of real world data that specifically pertains to your question. Our important data shows size of Solar Panels and areas that they heat. These are all using thermodynamic systems. Take a look and let us know if you have anymore questions.

 

[Gavin A]

At United Solar Solutions we have a long list of real world data that specifically pertains to your question. Our important data shows size of Solar Panels and areas that they heat. These are all using thermodynamic systems. Take a look and let us know if you have anymore questions.

could you post up a link please, as I'm not sure I've found the right site on google - can't see anything anyway.

I'm sure the mods can make an exception to the usual spam rules in this case if it's useful data.

Thanks

 

[Worcester]

Florida Has a slightly different climate to the UK - When did you last have snow there?

 

[solarsavings]

Worcester you shouldn't ask question like that http://www.tampabay.com/blogs/talk/content/snow-florida-see-photos-our-readers or Let it Snow in Florida

 

[The Solar King]

You are having a laugh. I love a good joke on a Monday. Can you tell us another one tomorrow? I take it you are unable to read and someone wrote this for you.

 

[SpitfireW'sale]

I thought that response was coming!

 

[Vegelen]

A thermodynamic system only has 1 part that could possibly ever need replacing, and that's the compressor, which is just like the one on the back of your fridge freezer.

No. 2: Leaking Refrigerant?.

 

[Gavin A]

Corr.....wouldn't hurt to expand on that with some actual constructive comments.

You take it I am unable to read? Haha.....what a comment. What are you, a child? Nice one

as you'll see from this thread, there's a fair degree of scepticism on here about these systems, mostly down to some dodgy miss selling that seems to be going on with them, although some do seem to (wrongly) think that they don't work at all.

I'm far more open to them, and we've been on the verge of starting installing these for the last 2 years, but were a bit put off by the whole spiel about them not being heat pumps when anyone with half a clue can see that they are, and the lack of hard data. I've no problem with the concept, and the technology looks pretty good tbh, but the way it's been sold in this country is a **** take.

 

[Gavin A]

No. 2: Leaking Refrigerant?.

no 3 - pump

no 4 - control unit

no 5 - blown panel

no 6 - expansion vessel for tank depressurising

no 7 - leaking roof due to poor fixing system

 

[Gavin A]

MCS have now formally suspended these products, though they've allowed a grace period through to the 18th Nov for companies to register existing contracted projects.

They've said they're working with the manufacturers to develop either a new process, or an extension of the SWH or heat pump accreditation process for them, and to determine how to categorize them and how to adapt the SAP estimates for them.

So they're off the market for now for anyone wanting them to be eligible for RHI, or premium payment schemes, but should be back again in 6 months time or so.

according to an email I just received from MCS

 

[MCS Renewables]

Just got an email from MCS saying solar thermodynamics products have had it's license suspended.
Dated 5th Nov

 

[The Solar King]

We will all watch with interest. I'd put my money on it being classified as a heat pump, or a completely seperate caregory. Either way, it will restrict the market for the product to appropriate usage.

 

[The Solar King]

Corr.....wouldn't hurt to expand on that with some actual constructive comments.

You take it I am unable to read? Haha.....what a comment. What are you, a child? Nice one

Reasons for my comments should be self explanitory. Across both this and two other threads, there has been a great deal of reasoned and intelligent debate as to the efficacy of this product. There are those such as Gavin A who think there may be some mileage in them and others such as myself who have seen no evidence and are still awaiting requested and not forthcoming performance data for colder climates (or any climate).

Successful installation does not mean they will perform to a level that produces renewable energy as now defined. Successful installation may mean it hasn't fallen off the wall. There is no available data as to the product's CO2 mitigation or whether in on-grid areas they are any better than gas.

If you had bothered to read the threads in detail and taken in all the useful contributions made, I cannot see how you would have made the comments you did. No responsible business would push a product for which they cannot give an accurate indication of performance. My insurers would certainly consider it reckless behavior with all the implications that carries.

It would seem that Ofgem/MCS agree with this hence the reason they have issued the follow up letter yesterday.

The one thing everyone wants is real life performance data for this type of heat pump to compare it with those already on the market and also with solar thermal. Not a big ask, but I am deafened by the silence of the response from several different suppliers.

As Gavin A has rightly pointed out, the provenance and methods of those selling the product has cast further doubt on the technology. If it is really so good, in my opinion it wouldn't need to be pushed at all as it would sell itself.

 

[solarfred]

It's not a "simple compressor" as I understand it. It may render the unit uneconomic to repair.

 

[Vegelen]

Heat pump technology is being used in a breadth of applications.
If the technology is applied in the right environmental conditions, it will be a success.
The jury is currently out on where Thermodynamic Solar Panel systems can be successfully applied and how effective they are in various different environments versus alternative technologies, but not heat pump technology - it works and is here to stay.

Heat Pump Tumble Dryers:

- Siemens Blue Therm Dryer.

The worlds Most Eco-friendliest Tumble dryer. The Siemens Blue Therm Dryer - YouTube

- Rebranded and Sold As Bosch Ecologixx in Various European Markets.

Bosch EcoLogixx Dryer - YouTube

 

[solarfred]

How effective is the unit if there is no exterior panel/s? Does it then work? I assume in winter the panel will ice up as it is being cooled not warmed as in a fridge. What happens to the COP at this stage. Is there a de ice option.
How will it heat the water effectively if the immersion option is not automatic.

 

[Vegelen]

If the COP lowers how much would a Thermodynamic Solar Panel system cost to run for the heat it extracts during an extended period of cold weather versus typical UK alternatives?

 

[balbecdaze]

The Bosch ad makes it look like a cheese grater for clothes.

 

[peteheat]

There are far too many questions outstanding about this technology, one thing it has proved;

The Solar Keymark which the majority of consumers and many installers view as a quality standard is not worth the bandwidth used to type it's name because the Thermodynamic Panel passed the test using water, a transfer medium it was not designed for, the transfer medium is R134A a refrigerant gas.

The domestic system does not work in freezing temperatures, it is not designed to.

 

[The Solar King]

Heard today that NAREC (National Renewable Energy Centre) have made an open invitation to sellers of "Thermodynamic" solar panels to test their kit FREE OF CHARGE and produce an independent report on their performance.

So far...no takers!

 

[TedM]

NAREC posted about this on their website on 24th April but have since deleted it. Still in Google cache though:

Solar Thermodynamic Panels: Independent Test Challenge

They also Tweeted about it the same day and that Tweet has also been deleted.

Strange.

 

[solarsavings]

As you say Ted, Strange. The business address given in their website throws up some interesting stuff.

 

[The Solar King]

My contact spoke to NAREC on Friday.

They took it down because they had got busy with paying projects. They will be reinstating it, but with clarification that it won't start until after the end of May.

This means the offer is still open. I really hope it is taken up so we can get empirical data and settle the debate once and for all on the efficacy of this equipment.

There have been enough people on this forum promoting the equipment. Surely one of them would be more than happy to participate.

 

[Worcester]

The post still appears to be there : Solar Thermodynamic Panels: Independent Test Challenge
and Blog Archives - Narec Distributed Energy

It would be really goos to get some test data, certainly the slick suits have been promoting this to all sorts of customers.

 

[TedM]

That's the reinstated page with the extra sentence added:

"Due to current high levels of work, we should be able to start the test after the end of May."

 

[Worcester]

If you stand by yiur product you have nothing to fear and eveything to gain from this offer, so come on SKS ( ASA Adjudication on SKS Consultancy (Manchester) Ltd - Advertising Standards Authority) Energie (Energie Energia Solar Termodinâmica - Home Energie Solar - Solar Panel Central Heating and Hot Water systems using Solar Energy) et al, step up to the plate, and let your products talk for themselves.

Anybody know of the name of any other manufacturer other than Energie ?

Perhaps these guys? Essex Company gets Sole Distribution rights to Thermodynamic Panel or maybe they are just importing these ? Energy Panel | Eficiencia energética, panel solar termodinámico, Agua caliente sanitaria

Just found these guys from china too: http://www.smartclima.com/thermodynamic-solar-panel.htm

Oh and now we've got 'panel-less thermodynaimc systems' talk about marketing hype why not just call it an air source heat pump? Aerotermo PST-250 Paneless Thermodynamic System and seeing as these steal heat from the room, what cop are these guys going to be claiming next!!!