Third time lucky same problem.

[Inteificio]

Ok I still have an electrical problem I need assistance with.

This thread has been closed twice due to trolling, but as this is a potentially dangerous situation I would like the forums help.

Mods: if someone tries to troll this thread again, please just give them a slap and stop closing the dam thread!!!!


Parents live in an old farm house with a few conversions, due to this there are lots of overlapping electrics.

The current point of contention is an SWA feed.

This feeds 3 sockets in the kitchen (3/5 counter level sockets on one wall).
Why these are fed separately is beyond me, but irrelevant.

The SWA is 2 core, and although the SW is now glanded with an earth tab, there is no connection from this earth tab to the bar.

There is no apparent dedicated CPC for this circuit. I originally assumed that it passed on Zs due to parallel connections.

However last weekend I brought my multimeter over (could not bring the fluke for a Zs, long story).

I cont checked the earth pins from 2 adjacent sockets (but on different circuits).
I assumed I would get a reading of almost 0 as was expecting a borrowed earth.

What I got was a reading of over 1000Ohm.


To me this seems to indicate that there is no earth connection at all!

The house is on TN-C. Which frankly I know nothing at all about, it is on my to learn list =-)


Have sent the spark an e-mail, he says it is safe, any further question e-mail again. Have done to no response.

So to be clear I am not complaining about the lack of dedicated earth (parents house, their call), I am worried there is no earth connection.

Parents believe their spark, so do not want me messing around with stuff and doing tests that might knock the power off (parents house, their call, no matter how much it makes we want to scream)


So what on earth am I overlooking, or is there no E?

 

[johnboy6083]

that suggests that the sockets have no CPC, or one that is not connected to the earth bar in the respective DB's. If i were to carry out a contnuity test between two factorys, both fed from their own transformers, i would still expect to get a reading.
I would in this case, carry out R1+r2 tests which will

A) confirm which circuits are which, and that they are what the DB schedule says
b)confirm that the earth path back to the DB exists, and it is of a sufficiently low resistance.#
c) confrim polarity of the sockets

Do this before doing Zs, as the Zs will pick up any earth path, including a cross connection between earth and neautral, and can give misleading results, which on the surface appear top be adequate. Its not good practice to rely on paralell paths for ADS, as those paths can and wil lchange over time.

 

[IQ Electrical]

Ok I still have an electrical problem I need assistance with.

This thread has been closed twice due to trolling, but as this is a potentially dangerous situation I would like the forums help.

Mods: if someone tries to troll this thread again, please just give them a slap and stop closing the dam thread!!!!


Parents live in an old farm house with a few conversions, due to this there are lots of overlapping electrics.

The current point of contention is an SWA feed.

This feeds 3 sockets in the kitchen (3/5 counter level sockets on one wall).
Why these are fed separately is beyond me, but irrelevant.

The SWA is 2 core, and although the SW is now glanded with an earth tab, there is no connection from this earth tab to the bar.

There is no apparent dedicated CPC for this circuit. I originally assumed that it passed on Zs due to parallel connections.

However last weekend I brought my multimeter over (could not bring the fluke for a Zs, long story).

I cont checked the earth pins from 2 adjacent sockets (but on different circuits).
I assumed I would get a reading of almost 0 as was expecting a borrowed earth.

What I got was a reading of over 1000Ohm.


To me this seems to indicate that there is no earth connection at all!

The house is on TN-C. Which frankly I know nothing at all about, it is on my to learn list =-)


Have sent the spark an e-mail, he says it is safe, any further question e-mail again. Have done to no response.

So to be clear I am not complaining about the lack of dedicated earth (parents house, their call), I am worried there is no earth connection.

Parents believe their spark, so do not want me messing around with stuff and doing tests that might knock the power off (parents house, their call, no matter how much it makes we want to scream)


So what on earth am I overlooking, or is there no E?

Do you mean that there is no connection from the 'banjo' to the consumer unit earth bar?
If that's the case then why the confusion over no effective means of earthing?

As johnboy6083 said, do the usual tests to establish exactly what the problem is, isolate the circuit (this is your parents at risk here!!) and threaten the 'spark' with a report to his scheme provider and Trading Standards should he not get back there pronto and rectify the problem.

 

[Rockingit]

How has the SWA been made off into the first socket? If it's not been done properly then you might not have a good enough connection to the armour, which I'm guessing is intended as the CPC. And yes, you're quite right that a banjo/earth tag is pointless unless it's actually bolted to an earthed chassis or fit a bit of 6mm on it with a crimped lug & bolt.

Why you haven't got continuity between two adjacent earth pins is probably a whole separate problem.

Have these sockets been wired 'spoke' fashion, back to a JB somewhere? If so, the SWA probably feeds that JB, wherein probably lay all your answers!

 

[Inteificio]

Thanks for the quick responses!

If i were to carry out a continuity test between two factorys, both fed from their own transformers, i would still expect to get a reading. - Hence the reason for my concern


Do you mean that there is no connection from the 'banjo' to the consumer unit earth bar? - Yes, keep on forgetting that they are called that!

If that's the case then why the confusion over no effective means of earthing? - I don't think there is ANY earthing for these sockets - the confusion is why the install spark thinks there is!

The most likely cause for the lack of earthing is the missing bit of cpc between the banjo and the earth bar. It is right in front of me but I am not allowed to touch it. I even had the nicely bit of crimped wire in my hand ready to bolt in when I was stopped by dad "there is nothing wrong with it, don't touch it"


I really should have thought about this. I could have done most of the dead tests, with my multi-meter, while most of the circuit is live. For some reason I was in "filling in certs" mode where I need the fluke with it's calibration cert.

I am not allowed to knock off the supply as it will take out computers, which don't go back on the network when powered up. Apparently this is more important that risk of electrocution.

I will use a shorting plug to join R1/R2 at the socket then check cont between the MCB and earth bar. That will prove E cont, or lack thereof.


Before I have a go at this spark for the third time (he is starting to get ****y with me for obvious reasons). Is there any way that you can see NOT getting continuity between ALL earthed points on an install of any type?
Like John says, I would expect to get a reading between this E and the farm the other side of the valley. If adjacent sockets are not connected, something is VERY wrong.


So to clarify, I am not trying to hunt down the issue, it seems obvious where it is.
I need a watertight argument against this spark.
The amount of offence I am going to cause to both my family and this guy is significant, if I am wrong it will be catastrophic!

 

[Silly Sausage]

For a 2 core SWA (of this size), the armour acts as the CPC.
Your parents' 'Electrician' (he redefines that term!) has not earthed the armour, therefore, this cct & SOs have no earth!

Some pictures of the sockets, and the wiring inside would be good to see.

I'm assuming this is the cable in question, from your previous thread, and it's a plastic enclosure...
http://www.electriciansforums.net/a...nt-believe-said-fixed-img_20120507_105408.jpg

 

[Inteificio]

Hi Archy,

Well found photo.

It is a plastic box.

I just don't get how an NicEic spark with probably more years on the job than i have lived can make such a MESS. Part of me is wanting him to be correct and it to be safe, but I just cannot think how this can be safe!!!!

 

[IQ Electrical]

Hi Archy,

Well found photo.

It is a plastic box.

I just don't get how an NicEic spark with probably more years on the job than i have lived can make such a **** up. Part of me is wanting him to be correct and it to be safe, but I just cannot think how this can be safe!!!!

It doesn't matter what scheme provider this idiot belongs to, this is a shambles of a job, a bit of tape on the gland instead of a shroud, gland terminated into a plastic enclosure without an earth link for the SWA, no earth continuity at socket outlets-you need to demand that this guy returns or pays for remedials if he won't return.

Your local NICEIC area engineer would be very interested in seeing this pathetic installation and there is also a complaints form on their website.

This issue seems to have been going on for months, don't ------foot around, what more information do you need here?

 

[Rockingit]

For starters, that banjo will be better INSIDE the box or you'll have to make another cable entry to get your earth lead in. Second, it's a shambles of a make-off and if there is that little steel being bound then the resistance may be too high anyway for it to function as a cpc within the allowable limits.

Can you send us a picture of what is at the OTHER end of SWA?

 

[Inteificio]

Hi,

I do not live close to my parents, hence the long drawn out issue.
No photo on the inside, just a massively cramped disorganized box with wires all over the place.

What are you wanting to see in the photo, I can do my best to describe!



"This issue seems to have been going on for months, don't ------foot around, what more information do you need here?" - Just want to make sure I am 100% correct before confronting this guy. You would understand if you saw the amount of "£$% I got just for unplugging a phone to check for safety!

 

[Rockingit]

Maybe the best thing for you to do 'politically' is to try to persuade the area NIC inspector to take a look - be warned there'll almost certainly be a charge somewhere - as that way it's impartial and beyond question. I get the impression that there are issues here beyond simple electricity!

As for the 'other end', my thoughts are simply that if he's made so much of a hash making off an end that you CAN see, what's likely to be the state of the other end if it's buried somewhere?!

If these final outlets do not have continuity between each other (forget the MET for the minute) then there HAS to be a connection failure somewhere local to them, not just back at the board. If you can de-energise the circuit for long enough to do it, then just to go A-B-C-D-E on each of the R1, Rn and R2 then you'll easily find it. Do you have a long lead?

 

[Knobhead]

I’m staying out of this for the simple reason that you lost your rag at me last time. If it were my parents involved I would have put a bit more effort in to sorting the problem out. I know my mum and dad would have me live with them for a week while I sorted it out, if fact they would have expected it!

If you want to call me a troll then so be it!

You don’t ring true to me.

 

[Inteificio]

Hi Tony,
It was not you I was talking about.
You are still in my category of "highly knowledgeable and respectable - learn from this guy".

My parents are clearly not yours, if they were this would probably have been fixed months ago.

 

[telectrix]

my tuppence worth is that if your parents are so un-cooperative and won't listen to you, walk away, let them get on with it. ( if the job's a death trap, then it's their lookout for not listening )

 

[Strima]

Rather than try again here why not pay for an independent spark to go in and conduct an assessment on the circuit?

If the installation is found to be unsafe then at least you'll have a formal piece of paperwork to approach the original installer with and take it from there.

Getting that feeling of de-ja-vu again...