M

MCS Renewables

One of my neighbours is having a solar presentation tonight at 5pm with a certain national window company.
I am sitting in and will let you know.

The first rule of war is know thy enemy....
 
ask em if they do BOGOF on solar panels. LOL.
 
It will be interesting to see what happens tonight, you never know they may surprise you with an honest, REAL compliant sales presentation.
 
I'm sure system will start at £30k, then rep will be on the phone to his manager for a 50% reduction, products change but hard sell techniques remain the same.
 
here goes :-
A Mr Hikmet ***** of ****** windows turned up at my neighbours to present a solar PV presentation to us. Mr ****** is a late middle aged Turkish gentleman I would score five out of ten for technical knowledge. I never let on I was an installer. He was with us for two hours.
******** only fit Mitsubishi 185 modules and inverters which he claims are made by "platinum" for ******* but what we would call Diehl.
He never looked at the mains board, the earthing system or even stuck his head in the loftspace all of this is done by a surveyor approximately two weeks after we sign.
He used his i phone to assertain compass direction and informed my neighbour that he would only get twelve panels on a clear roof space 10m x 3.5m with no shading but facing directly East. He did mention that he could East West split the system at additional cost.
He said Anglian always mount the inverters in the loft space and the only item downstairs was the meter and isolation point.
We watched two videos starring George Clark and one of them showed the information board on the front of the Diehl inverter but failed to mention it is unusable if stuck away in a hot loft. The Diehl 3100 s shown is an inverter with integral transformer and will run hot and clearly states in section 14 of the installers manual that operation is affected if installed above 45 degrees. Section 1 of the manual warns of installing in dusty areas so a hot roof space with fibreglass did not seem ideal but I did not tell him. I also thought that they could have used the 2800S for 12 x 185 watts.

To be fair he was not as hard sell as I thought he would be, but he give some misleading information which would make some people feel pressured.
He claims that the FIT rate is going to drop later this year and according to the Guardian (7th Feb 2011) article he produced it is under review at the moment. I was not allowed to read the article but I think it was more about the rate dropping for solar farms and not the domestic market.
He also told some big fibs about returns as he claims 10 x 185 panels in Sheffield on a S facing roof would provide over £1000 a year which niether of my solar predicton packages can get anywhere near, however someone on here may have other information.
He claimed ****** is a blue chip company and started in Solar in July 2010 and that independants were a waste of time and we were all fly boys who would disappear when the renewables bubbles bursts. He said they had specialist contractors not subbies.

His bottom line prices were as follows :-( All Mitsubishi 185 modules with Diehl inverters)

6 modules at 1.1kW is £11,000 (alleged FITS income over £32K over 25years !!)
12 modules at 2.2kW at £16,165
16 modules at 2.9kW at £21,000
No prices above 3kW.
East - West split extra cost of £1500 (assume additional inverter)
I have a list of other add on costs

solar thermal fitted between £8K and £9K, flat plate

Being as we can install a 3.84kW Sanyo HIT 240 system with Sunny boy 4000 TL twin mppt with sunny boy remote for similar money to the 12 Mitsubishi modules price above I feel that the ******** "blue chip" company is a complete rip off. The solar thermal is also about £2-3K overpriced.

Unfortunately he claims to visit four homes a day and get at least one sale which is disturbing to say the least. He was ten minutes late because he visited another property in the same road and was daft enough to tell me the house number. Needless to say I went to see them last night as well , which is sort of payment for my post !

To sum up if you are an installer this may be of some interest and if you are a consumer please get quotes from local MCS companies who are not WINDOW fitters. Alternatively if you want to pay twice what you should for some average modules please feel free to contact Mr Oglakci on ***** ****** or ******************** .

They also offer a £500 deposit loan scheme with interest at 10% PA which IMO with their pricing would make PV a non starter.

However they outsell me! :)
 
I'm not sure if this should have been posted on an open forum as your sailing awfully close to the wind here gentleman. I'm not sure what is happening in todays industry, but I don't think I have ever done somethnig like this, in fact perhaps i'm harking back to bygone salad days here, but I would have no problems helping out another electrical contrator rather than setting up a sting.

What I can read of this, the guy wasn't pressuriszing you into a sale. and apart from the "mis-calculations" on the yield, which after all is just guess work in all cases really, the only real problem maybe the equipment he uses, and again that is down to semantics.

His price is his, and if he gets business then more power to him, in todays savvy world I'm not sure anyone would accept just the one quote, perhaps some customers want to pay that little extra to deal with a well known company. Again is he wrong to point out that as a long established company, there is a better chance of them still being in the market place 5 years down the road then perhaps a sole trader.

It seems that the new PV side of our industry is building a business on sandy ground, as there seems to be a lot of dissention about competition from the "big players". As this is suppose to be the future surely then there is room for them and the good sole trader. As the electrical as always had
 
The yeild figures arent guess work! the sap calc is mandatory! if he is upselling based on misleading figures then he is unlawfully trying to sell you something IMO
 
Again is he wrong to point out that as a long established company, there is a better chance of them still being in the market place 5 years down the road then perhaps a sole trader.

Woolworths, MFI.....all big names! No more chance of the big guys being here as a sole trader. In fact I would say as a Business Partner, not LTD I would work harder to keep afloat as it is my house on the line, unlike the Ltd company who can be gone one day and back the next. The issue here isn't the product or price of the system. With those figures I'm happy. It's the miss selling and misleading information these companies seem to be all about. I have witnessed this first hand in several quotations and posted on here about it. SAP2005 is so simple to work to my 5 year old can do it......but it seems Nationals can't. Loosing potential jobs on systems which we know can not achieve the estimated annual yield is frustrating yet it is us the small guts who are seen as the crooks!

If it was me.....Name and Shame them!

P.S. My company is over 40years established!

P.P.S, And forgot to say, yesterday had a potential client tell us he can get 18p export tariff! That's what he had been told by a National installer. Looked into it and it was an article back in 2007 from SSE on the rate for ROC's. Scheme is no longer in operation but they felt it right to tell the potential customer that. Miss selling or not?
 
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The yeild figures arent guess work! the sap calc is mandatory! if he is upselling based on misleading figures then he is unlawfully trying to sell you something IMO

So when you calculating my return for let's say a 5 year period, so year 2011 amd 2014 we have a wonderful summer, a bright and sunny spring and autumn is cold but sunny.

Year 2012 2013 and 2014 is the opposite, cold wet summer, a windy cloudy spring and a dark dismal winter, what would my SAP calculation be for that 5 year period
 
note the disclaimer on the sap calc. I know what your saying and i agree that the sap calc is flawed in many ways, but the sap calc must be used to estimate yeild.
 
note the disclaimer on the sap calc. I know what your saying and i agree that the sap calc is flawed in many ways, but the sap calc must be used to estimate yeild.

Thank you so much for perhaps the first honest answer concerning PV. I did the PV course last May as we were looking at this technology over here where I work. It was with a well known training company which I won't name but when we were doing the SAPS a guy asked the exact same question as I just asked to the tutor. What we got was waffle a XL spread sheet and more waffle, because the bottom line there is no way you can even remotely forcast what type of harvest you will get back from a system.

It is totally dependant on weather conditions and how can you average what the weather will do. In the SE of England in a 15 year period you had perhaps 20 days of snow, last year alone that was beaten in a callender year.
 
Thank you so much for perhaps the first honest answer concerning PV. I did the PV course last May as we were looking at this technology over here where I work. It was with a well known training company which I won't name but when we were doing the SAPS a guy asked the exact same question as I just asked to the tutor. What we got was waffle a XL spread sheet and more waffle, because the bottom line there is no way you can even remotely forcast what type of harvest you will get back from a system.

It is totally dependant on weather conditions and how can you average what the weather will do. In the SE of England in a 15 year period you had perhaps 20 days of snow, last year alone that was beaten in a callender year.

I agree however that isn't just the case with PV it's the same of ALL renewable energies. In our case the energy source is the sun. For turbines its wind, heat pumps is air or ground temps. No difference. Not one of these can say we can guarantee the fuel source is going to give you XYZ.

They do however use averages. There is well documented data from a range of different sources from NASA to DECC to MET Office etc spanning numerous years. All give average daily, weekly, monthly and annually figures. Now SAP being SAP they decided to use these averages for a average location in the UK. Don't agree that, that is the correct way to do it but it would be fair. When it comes to DESIGN figures a good quality software can use locational information to narrow the data down and will in every case I have done been higher than SAP.

Using SAP is the level playing feild. It's just a shame the nationals don't work to it.

Now I agree my designs and SAP calcs can never be more than a estimated figure. After all how can anyone see into the future. But as I say tell me how it can be done for any renewable and give a guarantee of performance.
 
Thanks Mark for your honest answer and what you and MMCCX have confimed is the reason I don't see renewable energy as a viable proposition at this moment in time. Da Vinci in the 15th centuary designed a flying machine but unfortunately the technology was not available to produce one. 450 years later we did have the technology and built a flying machine.

To a lesser extent it's the same with renewable energy we know it will work but at this moment in time we can't make it work efficiently so the UK governmant have introduced a tax system that only benefits a select few in society who can afford this toy. IMO that is not the way we should go. By all means develop renewable energy but why introduce something that does not work. After all the government did not want to subsidies British Coal, British Steel and other industries that were not viable, why are we subsidising renewable energy, if it is viable let it stand on it's own as just that a viable energy source.

Again IMO the only sensible source of energy open to us is nuclear, but becasuse of the bad press and scare mongering it is something most governments shun, but at the moment I can't see what else there is available.

I can only say that the reason I came into this industry as an electrician/engineer is that it appeals to my logical brain. You start with an input and end with a output that is a result of that input. Nice clean and logical. Source and definate result, but renewable energies do not give me this and therefore should be at a development stage until it does. Not a subsidy in the hope we will get it right one day.
 
Below is section 5.2 taken from the REAL assurance code that all of our competitor are bound by. If a competitor is in breech of this code then surely we are duty bound to report them. If they are found in breech of the code then their membership of REAL and therefore MCS is withdrawn. It's unlikely to happen but it's worth a shot each time you encounter a lying salesman.

5.2 Behaviour of sales representatives

Members will be held responsible for all the actions of their employees, those individuals they contract with or who sell on their behalf. Members must make sure that all these people receive suitable training. This should cover the general standards described in section 4, and all the requirements of the Code, in particular those in sections 5, 6 and 7. Members must ensure that any-one visiting consumers' premises on their behalf must show identification. Job titles or descriptions used by sales employees, representatives and any-one acting on their behalf should not be misleading in terms of the holder's qualifications and experience.

Employees must not give false or misleading information about their company or the product, services or facilities being offered. They must not make any statement that is likely to mislead the consumer in any way. Sales employees and representatives, whether employed directly, sub-contracted or selling on the company's behalf, must not use any selling techniques designed to pressurise the consumer into making an immediate decision. These techniques are prohibited by law as well as contravening this Code. They include, but are not limited to:

staying in the consumer's premises for more than two hours except in exceptional circumstances;
offering an inflated initial price followed by a discount, or equivalent, for
signing on the day
agreeing to provide testimonials
providing customer referrals
providing performance monitoring data;
withholding price information until the end of the visit; or
claiming that there is limited availability of the energy generator .
Members are only permitted to offer any discounts of more than £200 where:

the undiscounted price quoted is a genuine price at which a significant number of retails sales of a energy generators could reasonably have been expected to have been made; and
the discounts have been specifically advertised a reasonable time beforehand on the website or in press or other media advertising.
Members must not follow up sales visits by offering further discounted prices intended to pressurise consumers into signing a contract.

Members should keep a record of the length of time they spend in the consumer's premises. This record will be required as evidence in the event of an investigation, but will not be a justification for spending more than two hours in the consumer's premises. Members' sales employees, representatives and any-one acting on their behalf must act with integrity and, in particular, they must respect the consumer's right to privacy and to bring any contact to an end if requested to do so. They must answer consumers' questions honestly and clearly.

Members must check whether a consumer is vulnerable in any way. (See section 4 above for more information on which groups of consumers may be considered vulnerable.) In such a case, they must adapt key information accordingly, and suggest that the consumer reads it with a trusted friend or relative.

Members must check in advance of a sales visit whether the consumer is vulnerable in any way. If so, they must request that the consumer arrange for a trusted friend or relative to be present. If this has not been possible, the member must re-schedule the visit at a time when a trusted friend or relative is available to be present.
 
It is obvious that guys (and gals) join this forum to increase their knowledge and therefore the client gains in the long run~

If you look at past annual output yields you will find a fluctuation of maybe 5%. SAP allows for this.
Snow on the ground (a great reflector) will increase yield on the average pitched roof for that time of year, especially coupled with the low temps.~ like many we monitor our clients outputs.
Modules do not only output from direct sunlight. So output on overcast days depends more on cloud density. Again ambient temps come into play here. A mid summer day with clear skies, high pressure weather systems and little wind, and an inverter mounted in loft, may not generate at all (or reduced output) during the height of the day. A winters day with dry air under a low pressure system will increase yield.
Not following installation procedures of equipment will invalidate warranties.
The information required by MCS, as set out by the IEE and now BS, is to safeguard clients from the installation company going bust! Enough info must be pasted on to the client and logged with accredited agent so that any qualified (accredited) installer can maintain the system in the future.~ as with any 7671 instal.
Sales people must be qualified to know what they are talking about, as mentioned in other replies~ I'm sure this thread will continue to raise it's head in the future.
 
My father was approached by an 'Everest type' company and the price dropped from £25k for a 1.35kw system to just 17k! What a bargain and with better yields than you can wring out of SAP.

There's a line which shouldn't be crossed when dealing with the (elderly) general public and I think they crossed it. With both feet.

Equally, I met another elderly guy who'd got a really decent system put in at a decent price - so not all cowboys out there.
 
See my post Real Audit chaps (Tonights one). They are asking us to report these things so they can take action. If they are true to their word they will investigate it.
 

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