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Discuss Tonight should be fun ! in the Solar PV Forum | Solar Panels Forum area at ElectriciansForums.net

note the disclaimer on the sap calc. I know what your saying and i agree that the sap calc is flawed in many ways, but the sap calc must be used to estimate yeild.

Thank you so much for perhaps the first honest answer concerning PV. I did the PV course last May as we were looking at this technology over here where I work. It was with a well known training company which I won't name but when we were doing the SAPS a guy asked the exact same question as I just asked to the tutor. What we got was waffle a XL spread sheet and more waffle, because the bottom line there is no way you can even remotely forcast what type of harvest you will get back from a system.

It is totally dependant on weather conditions and how can you average what the weather will do. In the SE of England in a 15 year period you had perhaps 20 days of snow, last year alone that was beaten in a callender year.
 
Thank you so much for perhaps the first honest answer concerning PV. I did the PV course last May as we were looking at this technology over here where I work. It was with a well known training company which I won't name but when we were doing the SAPS a guy asked the exact same question as I just asked to the tutor. What we got was waffle a XL spread sheet and more waffle, because the bottom line there is no way you can even remotely forcast what type of harvest you will get back from a system.

It is totally dependant on weather conditions and how can you average what the weather will do. In the SE of England in a 15 year period you had perhaps 20 days of snow, last year alone that was beaten in a callender year.

I agree however that isn't just the case with PV it's the same of ALL renewable energies. In our case the energy source is the sun. For turbines its wind, heat pumps is air or ground temps. No difference. Not one of these can say we can guarantee the fuel source is going to give you XYZ.

They do however use averages. There is well documented data from a range of different sources from NASA to DECC to MET Office etc spanning numerous years. All give average daily, weekly, monthly and annually figures. Now SAP being SAP they decided to use these averages for a average location in the UK. Don't agree that, that is the correct way to do it but it would be fair. When it comes to DESIGN figures a good quality software can use locational information to narrow the data down and will in every case I have done been higher than SAP.

Using SAP is the level playing feild. It's just a shame the nationals don't work to it.

Now I agree my designs and SAP calcs can never be more than a estimated figure. After all how can anyone see into the future. But as I say tell me how it can be done for any renewable and give a guarantee of performance.
 
Thanks Mark for your honest answer and what you and MMCCX have confimed is the reason I don't see renewable energy as a viable proposition at this moment in time. Da Vinci in the 15th centuary designed a flying machine but unfortunately the technology was not available to produce one. 450 years later we did have the technology and built a flying machine.

To a lesser extent it's the same with renewable energy we know it will work but at this moment in time we can't make it work efficiently so the UK governmant have introduced a tax system that only benefits a select few in society who can afford this toy. IMO that is not the way we should go. By all means develop renewable energy but why introduce something that does not work. After all the government did not want to subsidies British Coal, British Steel and other industries that were not viable, why are we subsidising renewable energy, if it is viable let it stand on it's own as just that a viable energy source.

Again IMO the only sensible source of energy open to us is nuclear, but becasuse of the bad press and scare mongering it is something most governments shun, but at the moment I can't see what else there is available.

I can only say that the reason I came into this industry as an electrician/engineer is that it appeals to my logical brain. You start with an input and end with a output that is a result of that input. Nice clean and logical. Source and definate result, but renewable energies do not give me this and therefore should be at a development stage until it does. Not a subsidy in the hope we will get it right one day.
 
Below is section 5.2 taken from the REAL assurance code that all of our competitor are bound by. If a competitor is in breech of this code then surely we are duty bound to report them. If they are found in breech of the code then their membership of REAL and therefore MCS is withdrawn. It's unlikely to happen but it's worth a shot each time you encounter a lying salesman.

5.2 Behaviour of sales representatives

Members will be held responsible for all the actions of their employees, those individuals they contract with or who sell on their behalf. Members must make sure that all these people receive suitable training. This should cover the general standards described in section 4, and all the requirements of the Code, in particular those in sections 5, 6 and 7. Members must ensure that any-one visiting consumers' premises on their behalf must show identification. Job titles or descriptions used by sales employees, representatives and any-one acting on their behalf should not be misleading in terms of the holder's qualifications and experience.

Employees must not give false or misleading information about their company or the product, services or facilities being offered. They must not make any statement that is likely to mislead the consumer in any way. Sales employees and representatives, whether employed directly, sub-contracted or selling on the company's behalf, must not use any selling techniques designed to pressurise the consumer into making an immediate decision. These techniques are prohibited by law as well as contravening this Code. They include, but are not limited to:

staying in the consumer's premises for more than two hours except in exceptional circumstances;
offering an inflated initial price followed by a discount, or equivalent, for
signing on the day
agreeing to provide testimonials
providing customer referrals
providing performance monitoring data;
withholding price information until the end of the visit; or
claiming that there is limited availability of the energy generator .
Members are only permitted to offer any discounts of more than £200 where:

the undiscounted price quoted is a genuine price at which a significant number of retails sales of a energy generators could reasonably have been expected to have been made; and
the discounts have been specifically advertised a reasonable time beforehand on the website or in press or other media advertising.
Members must not follow up sales visits by offering further discounted prices intended to pressurise consumers into signing a contract.

Members should keep a record of the length of time they spend in the consumer's premises. This record will be required as evidence in the event of an investigation, but will not be a justification for spending more than two hours in the consumer's premises. Members' sales employees, representatives and any-one acting on their behalf must act with integrity and, in particular, they must respect the consumer's right to privacy and to bring any contact to an end if requested to do so. They must answer consumers' questions honestly and clearly.

Members must check whether a consumer is vulnerable in any way. (See section 4 above for more information on which groups of consumers may be considered vulnerable.) In such a case, they must adapt key information accordingly, and suggest that the consumer reads it with a trusted friend or relative.

Members must check in advance of a sales visit whether the consumer is vulnerable in any way. If so, they must request that the consumer arrange for a trusted friend or relative to be present. If this has not been possible, the member must re-schedule the visit at a time when a trusted friend or relative is available to be present.
 
It is obvious that guys (and gals) join this forum to increase their knowledge and therefore the client gains in the long run~

If you look at past annual output yields you will find a fluctuation of maybe 5%. SAP allows for this.
Snow on the ground (a great reflector) will increase yield on the average pitched roof for that time of year, especially coupled with the low temps.~ like many we monitor our clients outputs.
Modules do not only output from direct sunlight. So output on overcast days depends more on cloud density. Again ambient temps come into play here. A mid summer day with clear skies, high pressure weather systems and little wind, and an inverter mounted in loft, may not generate at all (or reduced output) during the height of the day. A winters day with dry air under a low pressure system will increase yield.
Not following installation procedures of equipment will invalidate warranties.
The information required by MCS, as set out by the IEE and now BS, is to safeguard clients from the installation company going bust! Enough info must be pasted on to the client and logged with accredited agent so that any qualified (accredited) installer can maintain the system in the future.~ as with any 7671 instal.
Sales people must be qualified to know what they are talking about, as mentioned in other replies~ I'm sure this thread will continue to raise it's head in the future.
 
My father was approached by an 'Everest type' company and the price dropped from £25k for a 1.35kw system to just 17k! What a bargain and with better yields than you can wring out of SAP.

There's a line which shouldn't be crossed when dealing with the (elderly) general public and I think they crossed it. With both feet.

Equally, I met another elderly guy who'd got a really decent system put in at a decent price - so not all cowboys out there.
 
See my post Real Audit chaps (Tonights one). They are asking us to report these things so they can take action. If they are true to their word they will investigate it.
 

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