Trade Skils 4 U

[Redvanman]

This is the quality of the workmanship that these courses say that are good enough to rewireable a house with.
Not sure how slashing accessories onto a board gives you the experience to run cables in the fabrication of a house
I would like some one whose done this type of course to give they experience of their first job they completed

 

[Dcf]

its all about knowing your structures and that comes with experience no other way.
the 2" blocks today were pretty soft but the joints were rock hard.
cutting with a chaser there is less chance of the wall falling to bits if you just go at it with an sds
and no one wants to breath in your fine black dust either when they are in the same building as you.
take it from me who spent 6 months as an apprentice raggling a school block and used to clear the entire floor of men with my "dustless" makita cutter.
and before my old gaffer bought that beauty it was all by hand.

 

[R G]

Yep ,, all by hand when i started , right up to the early 90s then got a roto stop drill , my hands and knuckles all creak and swollen , the chisels and bolsters i went through, that was on fletons as well , and cement rendered walls , council rewires , whole estates with really solid walls ....hmm good old days /not..

 

[shanky887614]

its all about knowing your structures and that comes with experience no other way.
the 2" blocks today were pretty soft but the joints were rock hard.
cutting with a chaser there is less chance of the wall falling to bits if you just go at it with an sds
and no one wants to breath in your fine black dust either when they are in the same building as you.
take it from me who spent 6 months as an apprentice raggling a school block and used to clear the entire floor of men with my "dustless" makita cutter.
and before my old gaffer bought that beauty it was all by hand.

thats why i use a grinder, it gets people out from under your feet cause no one ever has dustmasks etc lol

as long as i can see 6-8" in front of my nose its crack on with the grinder

 

[davesparks]

flash btd. use a grinder down the wall (sds if occupied), knock out with sds and using cold chisel in sds cut box out.

cinderblocks are so soft you can cut them with a wood chisel, for everything else ill use a bolster/cold chisel.

Try as 1" scutch comb chisel instead of the wood chisel and cold chisel, much better on all types of block

 

[R G]

thats why i use a grinder, it gets people out from under your feet cause no one ever has dustmasks etc lol

as long as i can see 6-8" in front of my nose its crack on with the grinder

I bet the customer loves you , the house would look like the sahara desert in 5 mins ...lol...

 

[shanky887614]

I bet the customer loves you , the house would look like the sahara desert in 5 mins ...lol...

^^ i dont do domestic very often and if i do its unoccupied rewires/new build.

 

[Lapierre]

So I've been reading lots about the Domestic Installer route. Seems to me that the "old hands" are beefed because folks can join the industry after a 5 week course, whereas they've all done several years apprenticeships. Hmm.. I can see why. But on the other hand, why does someone need to do an apprenticeship who solely wants to work on domestic installations?
Here's my situation. I work shifts - in the emergency services. I won't say which one. A good mate of mine is a spark. Fully qualified via an apprenticeship etc. I've been working with him as a labourer for a while now - couple of days a week. I can re-wire a house quite comfortably. If there's something I'm not sure about I can ask him, or I know how to find the building regs and guidance too.
I'm going to stick my neck out here - " Domestic installations aren't exactly rocket science are they?". It's pretty easy to do properly and safely.
I'm looking at taking one of the 5 week courses to:
Consolidate what I already I know.
Learn some new skills.
Further my professional development with a view to eventually working alone.

And what's wrong with that?

If blokes and lasses are stupid enough to think they can sit a 5 week course, with no experience, then buy a van and stick their name on the side and get work - then they really are stupid. But I don't think that's happening. The DI route, as far as I'm aware is an attempt to separate the relatively simple world of domestic, from the far more complex world of commercial / industrial. Those who go through apprenticeships should be comfortable knowing that they'll be rewarded in the extra (better paid hopefully??) jobs they pick up in commercial/industrial. Whereas DI allows people like myself, who don't have time or the financial freedom to undertake an apprenticeship, to get into the industry safely. If some sparks are annoyed that DI's can get paid the same as them for a domestic rewire (I believe that this where a lot of the hostility comes from) - then it's tough cookie. We will live in an ever changing world.

 

[Midwest]

Blooming hell, think you better reach for your tin hat. Domestic work can be as simple or complicated as commercial or industrial work. Any sort of electrical installation takes knowledge & experience. One issue with short courses, is that it does not give the trainee the exposure to working with qualified electricians, that apprenticeships do. Whilst I acknowledge that apprenticeships are difficult to find these days, and perhaps these short courses, enable persons to get into a trade that they wouldn't be able to do otherwise, they do no address the issue of lack of experience, and to a certain extent, knowledge of a trade that is built up over the course of a time served apprenticeship. After all, Rome wasn't built in a day.

 

[Lapierre]

This is my point Midwest. If it's done in conjunction with hands on experience and the trainee (or whatever you want to call him/her) respects the trade and takes time to learn - what's the issue?

 

[Adam W]

If blokes and lasses are stupid enough to think they can sit a 5 week course, with no experience, then buy a van and stick their name on the side and get work - then they really are stupid. But I don't think that's happening.

What are you basing that opinion on?
Are you one of those who "respects the trade and takes time to learn" or do you believe " Domestic installations aren't exactly rocket science are they?" and don't have time or the financial freedom to undertake an apprenticeship but can manage just as well as someone who is Fully qualified via an apprenticeship etc.?

Would you feel as comfortable labouring for and learning from someone who had only done a 5 week course?

 

[MacSparky]

Whereas DI allows people like myself, who don't have time or the financial freedom to undertake an apprenticeship, to get into the industry safely.

So the 5 week course is about 3 grand? Well you could get yourself in to college on a night class to sit the full C&G qualifications over 3 years for that, and still have change to sit the 2391 and 2382, you could then work for your mate during that period and gain tons of experience ready to brave it alone at the end of your term. The 5 week course content touches the surface on electrical installations and gives good grounding, but 5 weeks is not enough! I am surprised your apprentice served mate hasn't already said this..

 

[R G]

So I've been reading lots about the Domestic Installer route. Seems to me that the "old hands" are beefed because folks can join the industry after a 5 week course, whereas they've all done several years apprenticeships. Hmm.. I can see why. But on the other hand, why does someone need to do an apprenticeship who solely wants to work on domestic installations?
Here's my situation. I work shifts - in the emergency services. I won't say which one. A good mate of mine is a spark. Fully










qualified via an apprenticeship etc. I've been working with him as a labourer for a while now - couple of days a week. I can re-







wire a house quite comfortably. If there's something I'm not sure about I can ask him, or I know how to find the building regs and








guidance too.












I'm going to stick my neck out here - " Domestic installations aren't exactly rocket science are they?". It's pretty easy to do properly and safely.
I'm looking at taking one of the 5 week courses to:
Consolidate what I already I know.
Learn some new skills.
Further my professional development with a view to eventually working alone.

And what's wrong with that?

If blokes and lasses are stupid enough to think they can sit a 5 week course, with no experience, then buy a van and stick their name on the side and get work - then they really are stupid. But I don't think that's happening. The DI route, as far as I'm aware is an attempt to separate the relatively simple world of domestic, from the far more complex world of commercial / industrial. Those who go through apprenticeships should be comfortable knowing that they'll be rewarded in the extra (better paid hopefully??) jobs they pick up in commercial/industrial. Whereas DI allows people like myself, who don't have time or the financial freedom to undertake an apprenticeship, to get into the industry safely. If some sparks are annoyed that DI's can get paid the same as them for a domestic rewire (I believe that this where a lot of the hostility comes from) - then it's tough cookie. We will live in an ever changing world.

So what are you going to describe yourself as a Domestic Installer or what ? , you won't be an Electrician , and therefore what customer wants someone like that in their house , all customers I work for want an Electrician that is suitably and professionally qualified to do their work , they wouldn't want someone who's done a course, I wouldn't want a tradesman in my house like that , I would be most concerned about safety , their are many variations to domestic work and after several years after an apprenticeship theres still many things that can be learnt , its as complicated as other aspects of Electrical Installations at times , you need to get yourself properly qualified to do this work if you want to do this work without supervision ....

 

[YoungBart]

I think part of the issue is that anyone can do them. I know a few people who started out as mates, then as the years went on they were doing anything that most other sparks would do, But for whatever reason not actually gaining any quals. So for them It's a way to get a formal qualification, bolster their own knowledge and Give them a route to starting their own business. But before they even went on the course they could do the job. Most sadly cannot.
You end up with Plumbers or Kitchen fitters doing the course 'Just so I can connect the odd socket up' Or 'So I can wire up the CH system'. The next thing you know a bunch of dangerously under qualified chimps are going around trying to apply 5 weeks worth of electrical knowledge to a situation that requires years of knowledge and experience, Telling eveyone they are a qualified spark, Under cutting the time served sparks who know what they are doing, And then getting paid for some potentially deadly bodge.


In my opinion.

 

[Lapierre]

As I've said, I don't think that many people would be daft enough to take a 5 week course and then start out entirely on their own with no hands on experience. (If folks are being mis-sold courses, then that's a trading standards matter) And if it was happening en-masse, I don't believe that NICEIC and Elecsa would be allowing such people to register with them. Especially if it were resulting in "deadly bodges". Is there much evidence of DI's carrying out such shoddy work. Don't forget DI's are assessed on an installation before they are certified. Surely your real concern should be people who have no intention of learning about the regs and other good practices that are contained in the 5 week courses - yet still intend to carry out domestic work. I'm sure that must go amongst your plumbers, kitchen fitters etc.
To answer a few questions.
I don't really care what I can describe myself as. If I can competently carry out a task, I'll do it. If I can't, I won't. Competency comes from experience, not qualifications. I think that the hostility towards DI scheme backs that up. I won't have time to complete the level 2 & 3 courses as much as I'd love to. It's not an option. I also renovate properties, so this DI allows me to certify my own work on my own houses.

 

[Adam W]

As I've said, I don't think that many people would be daft enough to take a 5 week course and then start out entirely on their own with no hands on experience.

What are you basing that opinion on?
Many of these courses are marketed as an entry into a new career. If you buy a course that is intended for someone who is already competent when you are not as competent as you imagined you were, the course wouldn't have been 'mis-sold' it would have been 'mis-bought' and wouldn't be a trading standards matter, it would be a buyer beware matter. In a worst case scenario the training provider may be forced to give someone their money back or change the wording on their website.

You're clearly going to use the experience you gained from your mate to go into competition with him despite what anyone here tells you, so there's no point trying to warn you of the tales of all the other 5WWs who have come here having been sold a course and then found they can't find work. I expect you think you've got something they haven't got, or maybe you think I invented them as part of some underhanded vendetta of sour grapes.

If that happens to you I suppose it will be 'tough cookie'.

 

[Plonker 3]

Can someone pleaes tell me when a "domestic installer" became part of the job title for a electrician?

I dont know how many times I Have said this, but either you are a electrician or you arent,there is no middle ground that these DIs seem to think they are. There really is a dangerous precedent being set by these shprt courses, I just hope they stop pushing htese courses before someone they have taught causes serious harm to something or someone.

 

[shanky887614]

im an electrician so i tried shop fitting for the first time yesterday. didnt go too bad ill see in a couple days when they are sending someone to help me out

 

[Plonker 3]

Which store are you working on, who is it for?

 

[shanky887614]

Which store are you working on, who is it for?

i think its spectrum? on a llyods pharmacy.

for a member on here

 

[Jay Sparks]

Makes me wonder why I bothered taking all them driving lesson, when I actually new how to drive before my first lesson, having been in cars before and watched them do it! Why bother getting a piece of paper telling me I can drive, when I know I can drive???? Who cares that I didn't know all the road signs, or what the different speed limits were??!!


Jay