Unable to run cables at a sufficient depth outside

[Basset]

I’ve installed electric gates at a property.

One of the issues I’ve had is I was unable to bury the cables at a sufficient depth as this would have weakened the driveway. So, I laid an earthed SWA cable around the edge of the driveway and encased it in 5cm of concreate, marker tape over that and then the driveway on top of that. It’s also protected by an RCD.

Cost me a lot of money, but the customer refuses to pay me as they were told that the cables should be have been buried 550cm. I’ve tried to explain how I have provided equivalent protection against mechanical damage, but they are not budging.

I’d just like to get your thoughts on this and any advise

Many thanks

James

 

[davidanthony41]

I guess you mean 550mm? 5.5m is quite a dig!

In any case there is no specific requirement on depth for private land, only that it has to be adequately safe from any likely activities. Even for the electricity supply utilities like SSE putting in large non-RCD protected cables the depth depends on the land use so 45cm for footpath, 60cm for public road (carriageway), and 1m for arable land (i.e. ploughed field).

Given it is in concrete and so not going to be accidentally hit by a gardening spade, etc, I would say it is suitably protected.

Was anything specified in any contract or quote?

Regulation 522.8.10 basically says as long as it’s buried in a way that prevents damage with indication tape it’s fine .you need to get your regs book and shove it in the smart arses face

 

[davidanthony41]

Regulation 522.8.10 basically says as long as it’s buried in a way that prevents damage with indication tape it’s fine .you need to get your regs book and shove it in the smart arses face

 

[Basset]

Lol don’t tempt me

 

[Mike Johnson]

I assume you have invoiced the gate company and the invoice states the payment terms, pay when payed is not allowed under the JCT form of contract which set the president in the construction industry, test case about twelve years ago.

Precedent not President, b****y predictive text.

 

[DJAndy]

Have you spoken to the end customer about the issue to check it's actually them that's complaining?

I had a main contractor try to stiff my previous employer claiming their client didn't pay. When we checked with the client they had paid, up front, and were quite happy with everything we'd done.

 

[Basset]

The "Joint Contract Tribunal" or the "Department of Trade and Industry" both have set the standards by which all contracts in the UK are assessed by the courts whether verbal or written, or just the contract terms that both parties should adhere too if no formal contract is drawn up.

Thanks for this I'll definitly look into it.

 

[Basset]

Have you spoken to the end customer about the issue to check it's actually them that's complaining?

I had a main contractor try to stiff my previous employer claiming their client didn't pay. When we checked with the client they had paid, up front, and were quite happy with everything we'd done.

Yes I have checked with the end customer and they are the ones making the complaint, but I also think the company is trying to get out of paying

 

[Basset]

Thanks all for your great advise.

I've been asked to put a letter together to show how I have adhered to the regulations. Would you mind running your eyes over it before I post it to both client and driveway company. Any suggestions would be most appreciated (keep it clean!) Thanks.

See below:-

---------------------------------------------------

Electrical installation at ********


Gates, lights and intercom

One of the restrictions we faced was disturbing the existing driveway as the new drive was going to be laid directly on top.


Burying the cable to a sufficient depth with no other protection is just one way of protecting it from damage, but not the only way.


The regulations clearly state “deep enough so as to not to get damaged” there is no specific requirement on depth for private land, only that it has to be adequately safe from any disturbance of the ground reasonably likely to occur during normal use of the premises.


The risk of mechanical damage due to external influence was assessed to be very low and so the following steps were being taken to reduce the possibility of damage to the cable:

• Cable was run around the periphery of the driveway, adjacent to a brick wall
• Cable was encased in concrete
• Earthed armoured cable was used
• Marker tape over concrete (driveway on top)
• Protected by an RCD (requirement 411 .3.2 Automatic disconnection in case of a fault)
• Plans drawn up showing cable routes

The following regulation was copied from the BS 7671 - 18th Edition - IET Wiring Regulations book and split into 3 parts as follows:

Regulation 522.8.10

• Except where installed in a conduit or duct which provides equivalent protection against mechanical damage, a cable buried in the ground shall incorporate an earthed armour or metal sheath or both, suitable for use as a protective conductor.
• The location of buried cables shall be marked by cable covers or a suitable marker tape. Buried conduits and ducts shall be suitably identified.
• Buried cables, conduits and ducts shall be at a sufficient depth to avoid being damaged by any reasonably foreseeable disturbance of the ground.

I have consulted with the NICEIC and also received positive feedback from a recognised professional electrical forum.

Therefore, I wholeheartedly believe that I have adhered to all the regulation guidelines laid down by BS 7671 - 18th Edition - IET Wiring Regulations.

Please review this letter and respond back within 10 days

Yours Sincerely

 

[Mike Johnson]

Re-write the letter with statements with a positive slant, for instance delete "one of the restriction" to "the major restriction"

Delete the next sentence: Burying the cable to a sufficient depth with no other protection is just one way of protecting it from damage, but not the only way. it puts you on the back foot.

It would help if you referenced each regulation you have adhered too when saying "Regulations state" put the Regulation reference in as many times as you can, reinforces your argument.

Include any Hazard Analysis and Risk Assessments you carried out, you did those at the time didn't you!!!!

Delete "and also received positive feedback from a recognised professional electrical forum". We have no standing and are irrelevant to the issue.

Delete "I wholeheartedly believe that" the sentence then becomes a statement of fact.

Delete "Please review this letter and respond back within 10 days" replace with "In accordance with my term and conditions please honour the invoice submitted on ----------- by return, failure to do so with leave me with no alternative than to seek recompense through legal channels".

 

[Pretty Mouth]

Buried cables, conduits and ducts shall be at a sufficient depth to avoid being damaged by any reasonably foreseeable disturbance of the ground.

This is the important bit. No one can damage the cable, or even access it cos it's under the driveway, encased in concrete.

I wouldn't mention the forum, this is a public thread and can be viewed by anyone.

I feel for you mate, you're being given the runaround here. What have NICEIC said?

 

[Mike Johnson]

Delete "Please review this letter and respond back within 10 days" replace with "In accordance with my term and conditions please honour the invoice submitted on ----------- by return, failure to do so with leave me with no alternative than to seek recompense through legal channels".

Replace "in accordance with my term and conditions" with "in accordance with the Department of Trade and Industry and Joint Contract Tribunal terms and conditions"

Read this: Settling disputes | Dispute resolution | isurv - https://www.isurv.com/info/1053/jct_minor_works_contract/10342/dispute_resolution

Do not post the letter to the client, you do not have a contract with the client and it will just muddy the issue, keep all correspondence between you and the contractor that you have the contract with.

 

[nicebutdim]

I'm astounded that the company walked away without payment, on the basis of this customer complaint. The sensible thing would have been to ask for your opinion, given that you're the qualified electrician in this equation, and then sought to recover payment for work to date or permission to continue with works.

They're perfectly entitled to write off their own materials and labour, but I'm not sure why they seem to think it acceptable to make such a decision on your behalf.

 

[James]

@Mike Johnson
Makes a really important point,
Do not enter into any further communication with the end customer.

Your problem is a matter of non payment by the company that employed you.

 

[Basset]

Replace "in accordance with my term and conditions" with "in accordance with the Department of Trade and Industry and Joint Contract Tribunal terms and conditions"

Read this: Settling disputes | Dispute resolution | isurv - https://www.isurv.com/info/1053/jct_minor_works_contract/10342/dispute_resolution

Do not post the letter to the client, you do not have a contract with the client and it will just muddy the issue, keep all correspondence between you and the contractor that you have the contract with.

Thanks Mike, all you have said makes sense, I knew there was something wrong with the letter and you've hit the nail on the head. I'll rewrite and post it to the company. Thanks again for taking the time to give some great advice, very much appreciated

 

[Basset]

I'm astounded that the company walked away without payment, on the basis of this customer complaint. The sensible thing would have been to ask for your opinion, given that you're the qualified electrician in this equation, and then sought to recover payment for work to date or permission to continue with works.

They're perfectly entitled to write off their own materials and labour, but I'm not sure why they seem to think it acceptable to make such a decision on your behalf.

It was the company that mucked the customer about and there where so many things that went wrong with it, so they pulled out. Now the company is trying to blame me for the electric not adhering to the regs. I'm going to rewrite my letter as per @Mike Johnson recomendation.