Underfloor heating fault ! Need tracker / tracer not TDR ??

[telectrix]

 

[Soulsurfer]

What about PCE-CL 20 ? 2 mtrs in soil or walls
50cm in concrete. That should find it no ? £200 for transmitter and receiver unit

 

[marconi]

What about PCE-CL 20 ? 2 mtrs in soil or walls
50cm in concrete. That should find it no ? £200 for transmitter and receiver unit

I read and watched the short video on the machine. It certainly looks neat and inexpensive. I would call the company or seller because in the technical detail it only says it can find continuous cables/wires or short circuits, See under the highlights tab-

- Locates hidden cables, wires or pipes
- Helps identify short circuits and fuses

whereas your problem is a break in one of the live conductors or a break in/off the heating cable.

You want to find out how the receiver will react as it crosses from one side of the fault to the other.

You also want to know if it has a narrow enough receiving beam not to be confused by signals in the close adjacent parallel lines of the weaved heating element array.

You might want to start a new thread which ask if anyone in the forum has ever used one, specifically to find your or a similar sort of problem.

Please let us know what you find out and how you end up solving this problem.

 

[marconi]

So basically a coil some kind of switch that can handle hv generated like a set of points and croc clip onto the mat tails ?

Yes, an old engine car ignition system with the HV side used to energise the underfloor heating element. I think though that the gas hob igniter is a better ready made sparker;

https://www.wowbbq.co.uk/product/we...MItIjm64PA1wIVCijTCh2CHgcZEAQYASABEgJkAvD_BwE

Stoves Spark Generator - Ignition Unit - https://www.buyspares.co.uk/product.pl?pid=2968966&utm_source=google&utm_medium=base&utm_campaign=products&mkwid=sQg9o1O59&pcrid=166155664440&kword=&match=&plid=&pdv=c&gclid=EAIaIQobChMItIjm64PA1wIVCijTCh2CHgcZEAQYHCABEgJLvvD_BwE

Howden Lamona Hob Ignition Unit / Spark Generator 082638976 - https://www.inter-spares.co.uk/howden/howden-lamona-hob-spare-parts/lam1001/ignition-unit-spark-generator-1-2-3-4.html?gclid=EAIaIQobChMItIjm64PA1wIVCijTCh2CHgcZEAQYHSABEgJ2s_D_BwE

You can also try the off station AM radio to search and listen for under floor spark.

Don't underestimate the power and sensitivity of the ears and brain to locate something - provided you have good hearing in the first place.

You may need a combination or sequence of methods to search and then localise.

 

[marconi]

You could also try one of these volt pens to locate the break:

0590 7450 | Testo 745 Non Contact Voltage Detector, 12V ac to 1000V ac | Testo - http://uk.rs-online.com/web/p/products/9055863/?grossPrice=Y&cm_mmc=UK-PLA-DS3A-_-google-_-PLA_UK_EN_Test_And_Measurement-_-Electrical_Test_Equipment-_-PRODUCT+GROUP&matchtype=&gclid=EAIaIQobChMIrrn9rIrA1wIVwgrTCh11gA--EAQYBSABEgJ7yvD_BwE&gclsrc=aw.ds

 

[marconi]

What you also need to do, whatever search tool you use, is use some form of visual integration and correlation to create a cluster or clusters of detections on the floor surface - you may have more than one fault.

To do this you will need some different coloured sticky dots/labels, and then to co-opt friend and family to each have a go at finding the fault/faults using the various search tools.

After a number of folk have had a go with one or more of the tools, you will either see a random arrangement of dots/labels all over the floor because no tool is any good, or hopefully some clustering where different tools and different people are jointly agreeing on a locality.

 

[Squid]

Rip the tiles up lay new mat and then tiles and the jobs a coloured root vegetable........

 

[telectrix]

a beetroot?

 

[Soulsurfer]

Have spoken to the chaps at PCE instruments and they think it would definitely work to find the break and can be used dead or live with 240V no problems, I also have two new volt sticks and various other toys to try, spoke also to a woman named Vicky at Underfloor heating services who has guys going out over u.k. fixing faulty ufh but she said any arc device would blow the cables apart ! and only advice from her was take up and fit new mat as it's getting to a point where the faults could keep coming. Thanks all anyway. As far as car style arc etc.. how could you keep the sparks coming ? would it require some kind of automatic repetitive switching magic ? Thanks for all the help.

 

[marconi]

With regard to HV arcs causing damage - it depends on the impedance of the HV sparker. The ones based on a car ignition system or gas hob igniter have an impedance such that they cannot deliver enough energy to cause damage. What I think Telectrix had in mind - 11kV from the local supply company is another kettle of fish! I would use either method on my own ufh electric heating if I had it. The reason being that the domestic mains already has much lower impedance sources of high voltage electricity superimposed on the 230Vac.

If it was me I'd use a gas hob sparker. To use the car ignition coil method, buy a 12 Volt 10Amp Double Pole Double Throw (DPDT) relay - wire the ignition coil in series with one of the the Normally closed contacts and bridge these contacts with a 'condenser'
- Points & Condenser for Lucas 25D 23D 22D 4 & 6 cyl distributor - condensor | eBay - https://www.ebay.co.uk/i/132220164991?chn=ps&dispctrl=1&adgroupid=43106429403&rlsatarget=pla-381255986833&abcId=1128926&adtype=pla&merchantid=7449114&poi=&googleloc=9044962&device=c&campaignid=857233083&crdt=0

Wire the relay coil in series with the 12V supply and the other set of Normally closed contacts.

Do respect the HV output from the ignition coil.

Again, if it was me I'd be employing integration and correlation as I mentioned earlier.

 

[static zap]

Do you have photos of layout , so if you knew a distance from the end it would be any use ?
( are these mats ,a heating element in a conductive tube ?)
..I'm thinking compare capaitances at ends ..
Screen-to-element , If no shorts / dampness leakage

 

[Soulsurfer]

Do you have photos of layout , so if you knew a distance from the end it would be any use ?
( are these mats ,a heating element in a conductive tube ?)
..I'm thinking compare capaitances at ends ..
Screen-to-element , If no shorts / dampness leakage

I don't have photos or layout as such as I'm going looking into it for a friend and client in a way but just know its nexan cable solid core type cable not sure if comes as a mat or separately but is apparently fitted into the screed. An only guess / estimate full length of the mat really.

 

[static zap]

(mine is more theory -used as an alt to TDR in cables)
..Must Google Nexan my self !