Unskilled management v skilled knowledge

[Ccboy]

Afternoon All
Wanted to put something out there.Been with company 18years but increasingly the people in charge of the dept including the head are non skilled at anything,recruited on the cheap and worryingly making some poor decisions.
To a degree the odd time we have locked horns with them they back down once they understand the legalities and health and safety issues.
I wondered what the general feelings were if anybody else is in similiar circumstances and how you deal with it.

 

[Dan]

I think this is one of those things that if we clocked how to handle it, we'd all be millionaires and stress-free.

This is one of those scenarios where experience shines through. You knowing this, and dealing with this, will help in the future to avoid locking horns. Somebody not experienced going up against the management would fail to get their point across and realistically risk quality of the job, and safety.

Budget cuts are everywhere now, this is the new standard. It wont be short term like a lot of companies convince themselves it will be.

So just keep calm, stick to the rules. Change the rules collectively and have the end-aim pointed out and clear throughout all discussions.

So be clear when a change is for profit. And be clear when a change or action is for safety. And don't get the two mixed up. And tell them not to mix them up too.

This is always going to be a hard one. And it's why a lot of people leave or get sacked or whatever. Trying to get your point across without getting wound up is a skill you need develop though, you just can't get through to everybody so choose your battles as they say.

 

[James]

Often management without the correct technical knowledge to back up a proper argument will use shouting and other bullying tactics to get what they want done in the way they want it doing.

A consistent and professional response is generally the best way to respond, backed up with the technical reasoning as to why it has to be done this way rather than the requested way.

If it is coming to blows, after a verbal discussion, send an email to them roughly quoting what was discussed, giving a clear and concise technical argument as to what the correct way to do it is and finally asking for clarification by return email.


Most of the time you will not get a response as they are unwilling to put down in writing a works order to do it in a certain way if they haven’t got the knowledge to back it up.

Edit,
In the end my final way of dealing with it was to resign and start my own business.
It is not a path I would recommend to everyone but has worked out well for me.

 

[Zerax]

There is a concept known as 'upward management'... it's not always easy, but is very common if you look for it... you just need to learn how to influence the decisions of those that make them...

 

[ipf]

Someone who has the ability to make a decision will always impress the top bods. Whether it is the correct decision is a different matter altogether.
It's all about production and cost cutting.
I've had a situation with a regular contractor and new management. They, supposedly, know what's best so it's a case of leave them to it.
With me, it's see what happens when the tumbling starts.......and turn up on my terms, if required.

 

[FatAlan]

Welcome to the real world. Those that know why end up managing those that know how even though many are complete idiots. More fool us!

 

[MJPD29]

Afternoon All
Wanted to put something out there.Been with company 18years but increasingly the people in charge of the dept including the head are non skilled at anything,recruited on the cheap and worryingly making some poor decisions.
To a degree the odd time we have locked horns with them they back down once they understand the legalities and health and safety issues.
I wondered what the general feelings were if anybody else is in similiar circumstances and how you deal with it.

Sometime I feel like this myself. Its incredibly frustrating and I always feel like corners are being cut to save a couple of quid. I try to back my arguments up with regulations etc. But just tend to get ignored the majority of the time so I just make sure and jobs I am doing are exactly as they should be. Everything else that others do is their problem.

 

[marconi]

Keep a diary and record the interactions you have with 'unskilled management', their content ie: what you advised and the outcome/decisions taken and by whom.

 

[Baddegg]

As per Marconi....keep a record...also follow they instructions to the letter and watch the whole thing unravel

 

[Pete999]

Came across many know it all Managers in my many overseas trips, relying on the skills of others to butter their egos and perceived knowledge in the return ti the UK. There are Some good ones, but they are in the minority, in my opinion, I have some stories, to long to write about.

 

[rapparee]

I often deal with unskilled managers

When I first started to be involved in production meetings, I remember people flinching at how blunt I was. The production manager didn't flinch, he just said alright then, you don't get to criticise unless you have a better idea.

He now often gets me to sit in on meetings because he reckons I'm not a yes man and will stop him from getting carried away. Apparently I'm good at bringing him back down to Earth.

It probably also helps that he knows that I am a miser at heart, so if I want to spend company money, then it must need to be spent.

 

[FatAlan]

I often deal with unskilled managers

When I first started to be involved in production meetings, I remember people flinching at how blunt I was. The production manager didn't flinch, he just said alright then, you don't get to criticise unless you have a better idea.

He now often gets me to sit in on meetings because he reckons I'm not a yes man and will stop him from getting carried away. Apparently I'm good at bringing him back down to Earth.

It probably also helps that he knows that I am a miser at heart, so if I want to spend company money, then it must need to be spent.

Yep, someone on a higher pay grade, prepared to listen and surrounding themselves with the right people. Be careful not to work yourself out of a job though My old man was a production engineer. Organised everything so well that he was made redundant.

 

[rapparee]

Yep, someone on a higher pay grade, prepared to listen and surrounding themselves with the right people. Be careful not to work yourself out of a job though My old man was a production engineer. Organised everything so well that he was made redundant.

I did work 150 hrs over the last two weeks, there is little chance of that.

I was feeling a bit burnt out yesterday evening to be honest.

 

[Devonchris]

I often deal with unskilled managers

He now often gets me to sit in on meetings because he reckons I'm not a yes man and will stop him from getting carried away. Apparently I'm good at bringing him back down to Earth.

I did work 150 hrs over the last two weeks,

To me, it sounds like the "unskilled manager" is more skilled at managing you than you are at managing him.

 

[Baddegg]

I did work 150 hrs over the last two weeks, there is little chance of that.

I was feeling a bit burnt out yesterday evening to be honest.

Holy shitballs! That’s a months work for me!....slow down man life is short...

 

[rapparee]

To me, it sounds like the "unskilled manager" is more skilled at managing you than you are at managing him.

Not really, I know what I got myself into.

The unskilled manager is a former toolmaker and he had the same experience when he was on the tools.

It's just part of the job. We're well paid for it.
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Holy shitballs! That’s a months work for me!....slow down man life is short...

The idea is to be able to buy a house without a mortgage in a year or so

 

[Baddegg]

Not really, I know what I got myself into.

The unskilled manager is a former toolmaker and he had the same experience when he was on the tools.

It's just part of the job. We're well paid for it.
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The idea is to be able to buy a house without a mortgage in a year or so

Fair play to ya mate......

 

[rapparee]

Fair play to ya mate......

The downside is I have no time for women lol.

 

[Baddegg]

The downside is I have no time for women lol.

It’s a rather ironic twist of fate that if you have time for women you wouldn’t have any money ha ha...good luck to you @rapparee i hope you make it but remember life is short and the only thing we have in the end is time.....

 

[Zerax]

Management can be a very subtle thing... I was talking to someone the other day who was adamant that she was too senior in her company to be managed. An intriguing thought. She then went on to tell me that the director she reports to just gives her 'objectives'. I tried to explain that he was managing you by those objectives, but she wouldn't accept it...

 

[edexlab]

Had lots of managers over the years , very few good ones , the best usually had been on the tools in the same or similar jobs

Just seems to be a big worthless bureaucracy now, they just invent new paperwork schemes for everyone to fill in to collect data, usually aimed at reducing costs by setting unrealistic targets putting pressure on staff trying to meet them which more often doesn't have the desired effect ruins staff confidence and morale until the best people leave for better jobs!

One of the best managers I ever had always said
" My Job isn't to rule you, it's about doing everything I can to make the guys on the tools jobs easier, I do the running around so you don't have to, meaning you can get on and do the job you're paid to do and the byproduct of that is more efficient working "

And he did, always there to help, never belittled anyone struggling, he'd often drop what he was doing and go help whether that meant on the tools or the broom, he was careful who he employed anyone abusing it didn't last long and it was a great shame when he retired

 

[Intoelectrics]

life is short and the only thing we have in the end is time.....

Absolutely! this is by far the most precious commodity one can never have enough of! In the past 2 years I have lost 3 dear friends to cancer. All 3 far too young to die and they all worked too hard and did not live life to the full.
One of dear Kate's last conversations with me before she passed was her worrying about doing things that she had always wanted to, and now, when its too late, the overwhelming regret of not living her life to the full as she had really wanted.

 

[rapparee]

Absolutely! this is by far the most precious commodity one can never have enough of! In the past 2 years I have lost 3 dear friends to cancer. All 3 far too young to die and they all worked too hard and did not live life to the full.
One of dear Kate's last conversations with me before she passed was her worrying about doing things that she had always wanted to, and now, when its too late, the overwhelming regret of not living her life to the full as she had really wanted.

I'm sorry for your loss

However my Grandfather on his death bed, could only complain about how he wouldn't be able to do any more work, and that he was complaining that his sons hadn't the same work ethic as him.

This was actually true, there was no big goodbye, his final moments were instructions on how to continue running the farm.

 

[Intoelectrics]

I'm sorry for your loss

However my Grandfather on his death bed, could only complain about how he wouldn't be able to do any more work, and that he was complaining that his sons hadn't the same work ethic as him.

This was actually true, there was no big goodbye, his final moments were instructions on how to continue running the farm.

Thank you,

Ah.. In my experience the vast majority of farmers (my bold) see their job as their life (and it is for most) so I can understand your Grandfather's view point.

I have a friend who runs a family owned farm and his father lives and breathes the farm and cannot get his head around why my friend (his son) wants to jet off on holiday with his wife and kids for 2 weeks a year. It really kills his pig (excuse the pun) why his son needs to take such a "long" break.

 

[rapparee]

Thank you,

Ah.. In my experience the vast majority of farmers (my bold) see their job as their life (and it is for most) so I can understand your Grandfather's view point.

I have a friend who runs a family owned farm and his father lives and breathes the farm and cannot get his head around why my friend (his son) wants to jet off on holiday with his wife and kids for 2 weeks a year. It really kills his pig (excuse the pun) why his son needs to take such a "long" break.

It was sort of funny in a way

There was no big going into the light, talking about his predeceased wife etc.

My own father who wasn't involved with the farm literally rolled his eyes.

 

[Carl S]

I spent much of my time before I retired behind a desk pen pushing and I hated it.

OK I was doing mainly R&D (wreck and destroy) work which was interesting.

Learn how the process works before telling someone else how to do their job.

 

[Intoelectrics]

Learn how the process works before telling someone else how to do their job.

Not just learn but actually have a go yourself if possible.

I remember a fella who had done the same job (dispatch) very well for many years he worked 50 hours a week doing a consistent quantity. One time he fell ill and someone else had to take over. The new guy, after a couple of weeks learning, did the same job just as well and at the same consistent quantity in 40 hours. Turned out he discovered a better method which enabled more efficiency. On return the original fella, surprisingly took it all in good faith and adopted the new system.

Sometimes a new way is a better way, other times something is done a certain way cause that's the best way. But no one should comment or criticise unless they are prepared to get their hands dirty and find out.