Very interesting regarding down lighters.

[baldsparkies]

During a conversation with a local building control guy on site today something came up that I found to be an interesting twist.
These days we all tend to fit fire rated down lighters, with the open type becoming more and more frowned upon for obvious reasons.
Now the conversation got around to Bathroom down lighters first, and the fact that correct IP ratings are required within relevant zones, however in most domestic situations where the attic or loft space is above they technically need not be fire rated.
Simple reason is there is no habitable room above.
Ground floor is generally different because in most locations bedrooms are above.
But !! and here's the twist.
A Kitchen is normally below the bathroom, and guess what !! Bathrooms are not classed as habitable rooms.
So non fire rated down lighters would appear to have more scope regarding regs than commonly thought.
A few times the quote was, don't assume !! Show me a regulation that specifically states you cant use non fire rated down lighters on a 1st floor ceiling of a traditional ground and 1st floor property ??
Or the ground floor of the same property where a bathroom is above.
Ok I know the answer is (Well I always use fire rated regardless) and that's fair enough.
But where non fire rated are already installed it would appear we shouldn't be to quick to judge
Otherwise we can confuse, and possibly quote personal opinion vs written regulations. :thinking:

 

[Andy78]

Fire rated as standard in all areas for me. No reason not to.

And as for the habitable room above.. that's cobblers. The building regs require the ceilings of all rooms with a load bearing floor above to be returned to the original fire rating should they be breached, i.e. cutting a downlight hole.

 

[Dave OCD]

In the blame/claim world that we live in now isn't it just as well to always fit fire-rated regardless ? I personally like the peace of mind.

 

[baldsparkies]

Fire rated as standard in all areas for me. No reason not to.

And as for the habitable room above.. that's cobblers. The building regs require the ceilings of all rooms with a load bearing floor above to be returned to the original fire rating should they be breached, i.e. cutting a downlight hole.

Sounds right to me, building regulation number ???
Ceilings fire rating ?? Cus the open plan staircase next to that ground floor ceiling also came into the equation.
I agree with you but that's an opinion at the moment, I'm still searching through building regs.
Love to have something written on the subject.

 

[baldsparkies]

In the blame/claim world that we live in now isn't it just as well to always fit fire-rated regardless ? I personally like the peace of mind.

Exactly what I think, but is he correct, or is he wrong, and where is the regulation that makes it so.
My point is not about what we think we should be doing, I agree with the fit fire rated camp, I'm in it.
But if there NOT fitted are they in breach of any regs as per my 1st post ???

 

[Andy78]

It's in one of the tables at the end of part B somewhere.

I agree it makes no sense with open stairs and that..... not a debate im gonna get into at ten to beer on a friday

 

[Welchyboy1]

Fire rated Bathroom downlighters are ok with led lamps in, but i find the ones i have used that are halogen when i cant talk the customer to upgrade are normally maxed at 35w and with the lamp being a little set back in the fitting, they work out noticably less bright

so i tend to opt for non fire rated in bathrooms only

but this leads me to think what the heat rating on the front glass would be, as its going to withstand a 50w gu10 from point blank, it would probably be pretty fire resisstant anyway?

 

[Flanders]

The other isue i have had with the none fire ratted down lights is that after a time of changing the lamps the clip that hold the plastic connector block falls away, the cable ends up touching the lamp and melting the cable , a guess this is not such a issue with led lamps but at least with the fire rated ones the lamp is kept nicely enclosed away from any stray cables

 

[Dave OCD]

Fire rated Bathroom downlighters are ok with led lamps in, but i find the ones i have used that are halogen when i cant talk the customer to upgrade are normally maxed at 35w and with the lamp being a little set back in the fitting, they work out noticably less bright

so i tend to opt for non fire rated in bathrooms only

but this leads me to think what the heat rating on the front glass would be, as its going to withstand a 50w gu10 from point blank, it would probably be pretty fire resisstant anyway?

I expect a fire immediately below would soon shatter the glass, I tend to avoid GU10s and 12v MR16 halogen lamps altogether these days as they get stupidly hot and cost an arm and a leg to run too.

 

[R G]

I would always use fire rated no matter what , in the case of a bathroom above a kitchen , this shouldn't make any difference , does the bathroom have a fire door fitted that leads on to the landing and other rooms ? , theres so many variables as to what might happen in case of a fire , I would have thought caution is best ...

 

[Richard Burns]

The fire rating of any ceiling penetration should be maintained at the level it was before the hole was cut, however it is found that for a normal plaster board ceiling on square wooden joists installing downlights does not affect the fire rating of the ceiling so fire rated are not required.

When you get into fire barriers i.e where the ceiling is a fire compartment wall then you need fire rated downlights, but of course you have to select ones that are the same or greater rating than the fire compartment wall.

A fire compartment is only in place where there is a different residence or a garage, so if you fit downlights in a garage which has a room above it, or fit them in a ceiling where there is another flat above it then these would need to be fire rated the same as the ceiling.

Having said all that just fit fire rated anyway, normally easier to fit and manage, the only problem is with long LED lamps not fitting the can.

 

[GB.Kayak]

The fire rating of any ceiling penetration should be maintained at the level it was before the hole was cut, however it is found that for a normal plaster board ceiling on square wooden joists installing downlights does not affect the fire rating of the ceiling so fire rated are not required.

When you get into fire barriers i.e where the ceiling is a fire compartment wall then you need fire rated downlights, but of course you have to select ones that are the same or greater rating than the fire compartment wall.

A fire compartment is only in place where there is a different residence or a garage, so if you fit downlights in a garage which has a room above it, or fit them in a ceiling where there is another flat above it then these would need to be fire rated the same as the ceiling.

Having said all that just fit fire rated anyway, normally easier to fit and manage, the only problem is with long LED lamps not fitting the can.

Hey RB, do you have a definitive reference for this?

 

[Richard Burns]

Wiring matters referring to the testing done in 1996, part B of the building regulations approved document.

 

[telectrix]

RB is 100% correct.

 

[ruston]

Yes he is.