Very interesting regarding down lighters.

[baldsparkies]

During a conversation with a local building control guy on site today something came up that I found to be an interesting twist.
These days we all tend to fit fire rated down lighters, with the open type becoming more and more frowned upon for obvious reasons.
Now the conversation got around to Bathroom down lighters first, and the fact that correct IP ratings are required within relevant zones, however in most domestic situations where the attic or loft space is above they technically need not be fire rated.
Simple reason is there is no habitable room above.
Ground floor is generally different because in most locations bedrooms are above.
But !! and here's the twist.
A Kitchen is normally below the bathroom, and guess what !! Bathrooms are not classed as habitable rooms.
So non fire rated down lighters would appear to have more scope regarding regs than commonly thought.
A few times the quote was, don't assume !! Show me a regulation that specifically states you cant use non fire rated down lighters on a 1st floor ceiling of a traditional ground and 1st floor property ??
Or the ground floor of the same property where a bathroom is above.
Ok I know the answer is (Well I always use fire rated regardless) and that's fair enough.
But where non fire rated are already installed it would appear we shouldn't be to quick to judge
Otherwise we can confuse, and possibly quote personal opinion vs written regulations. :thinking:

 

[Andy78]

Whilst the research in the wiring matters document seems to offer evidence that non fire rated downlighters can be effective in a 30 minute rated ceiling, I would still always choose at least a 30 minute fire rated downlight.
The reason being that if no fire rating was offered by the manufacturer, then I would be in breach of BS7671 by selecting equipment not suitable for purpose with regards to the regs requiring fire sealing of penetrated building fabrics. Surely if strong accepted evidence existed that a 30 minute ceiling was not compromised by any downlight, then all downlights would state 30 minute fire rated ?

 

[davesparks]

Fire rated as standard in all areas for me. No reason not to.

And as for the habitable room above.. that's cobblers. The building regs require the ceilings of all rooms with a load bearing floor above to be returned to the original fire rating should they be breached, i.e. cutting a downlight hole.

Collars aren't load bearing though so ceilings with a loft above don't need fire rating.

 

[Andy78]

Collars aren't load bearing though so ceilings with a loft above don't need fire rating.

You mis-read. I said cobblers, not collars.

 

[davesparks]

You mis-read. I said cobblers, not collars.

Stop being silly! You know full well which particular timbers I am
Referring to with the term collar.

Being silly isn't allowed around here you know!

 

[Andy78]

Not even on a Friday with a belly full of ale ?

 

[GB.Kayak]

Yes he is.

... oh no he's not ...

I did not doubt for more than about 0.39999 seconds the veracity of RB's post. However, like doubting Thomas, I want to see the 'nail marks'!

 

[Leesparkykent]

https://www.downlights.co.uk/files/ESC-Fire-Rated-Downlights.pdf?334762691

http://www.----------------------------/mediafile/100015236/Downlighters.pdf

 

[GB.Kayak]

Yes he is.

DUPLICATE!

... oh no he's not ...

I did not doubt for more than about 0.39999 seconds the veracity of RB's post. However, like doubting Thomas, I want to see the 'nail marks'!

 

[Marvo]

I think there's a lot of valid points above that probably won't stop people specifying and installing fire rated fittings even if they're strictly not necessary but they should affect the way you approach non-fire rated downlights when it comes to coding them on an EICR.

 

[baldsparkies]

Unfortunately I can see where the Inspector was coming from reading through replies.
His point was there are situations within a bog standard home.
Not a flat or block of flats.
Not where garages or fire doors are concerned.
But within the conditions stated in my first post.
He referred to specific building regulations regarding and outlining the use of,and circumstances when non fire rated down lighters can be used without contravening building regs.
So in a standard home, the 1st floor ceiling with an attic above can use non fire rated.
Also a ground floor room that has a non habitable room above, and a bathroom is classed as that can also contain non fire rated.
Now we all know what our preferences are, and we justify that preference in our own ways.
But when it comes to the simple question of show me the regulation that supports preference you will struggle to find it.
And that's exactly the point he was making.

 

[baldsparkies]

I think there's a lot of valid points above that probably won't stop people specifying and installing fire rated fittings even if they're strictly not necessary but they should affect the way you approach non-fire rated downlights when it comes to coding them on an EICR.

Totally agree,
You cant start coding non fire rated down lights just because you don't think they should be used, or because you wouldn't use them.
You have to quote the regulation that makes them non compliant, and that's where the struggle begins.
Because like it or not.
There are situations where they are allowed.

Fire compartments
The spread of fire within a building is restricted by sub-dividing the building into compartments separated from one another by walls and/or floors of fire-resisting construction.
Dwellings
Property type A - Semi-detached and Terraced Houses
Walls that separate semi-detached or terraced houses are constructed as fire compartment walls and the houses are considered as separate buildings. Otherwise, the walls and floors within such dwellings are not constructed as fire compartment walls and floors. However, this does not mean that they do not require some degree of fire resistance. Under Building Regulations "Fire Safety" a minimum fire resistance is given as 30 minutes.
Property type B - Flats and Maisonettes
In buildings containing flats or maisonettes, every floor is constructed as a fire compartment floor and every wall that separates a flat or maisonette from any other part of the building is constructed as a fire compartment wall. Under Part B of the Building Regulations "Fire Safety" a period of fire resistance for fire compartment walls and ceilings will be at least 60 minutes.
Installing recessed or semi-recessed luminaires
In property types A , i.e. where walls and floors are not fire compartment walls and floors.
Tests carried out in 1996 by the DoE and TRADA to determine the effect of recessed downlighters [with no boxing or fire hoods ] on the fire resistance of a plasterboard and rectangular timber joist ceilling construction, concluded that they had little significant effect on fire ratings up to 30 minutes. The inferrence therefore is that at least with this type of ceiling it is not necessary to "box-in" or install fire hoods for the purpose of restoring the integrity of the fire resistance. However, where there is the possibilty that debris may accumulate or thermal insulation has been installed - for example in a roof space - a case could be made for "boxing in" or installing a hood to protect the luminaire and to create a void around it for heat dissipation. A clear void of 20cms around the luminaire and 75mm above may be considered reasonable, but manufacturers recommendations should always be followed where available.
In property types B, i.e where walls and floors are fire compartment walls and floors.
Part B of the Building Regulations "Fire Safety" permits openings to be made in fire compartment walls and floors "for certain purposes ... provided that they meet certain provisions". It is therefore advisable to clarify beforehand that these requirements would be met when proposing the installion of recessed luminaires. In any case, for fire compartments to be effective any openings must not present a weakness in the integrity of the construction and the fire resistance must be restored to be at least 60 minutes. The use of fire hoods or boxing-in could be considered as a way of achieving this but only if they meet the required fire resistance standards after installation. In some cases, often in kitchen and bathroom areas, a secondary "suspended" ceiling is installed to provide a means of hiding services or in some cases for sound insulation. In this instance, subject to recess depth, it is possible to install recessed luminaires without affecting the fire compartment ceiling above.
If in doubt consult your local authority Building Control Department.

 

[dingledong]

Spot on sir

 

[Andy78]

Totally agree,
You cant start coding non fire rated down lights just because you don't think they should be used, or because you wouldn't use them.
You have to quote the regulation that makes them non compliant, and that's where the struggle begins.
Because like it or not.
There are situations where they are allowed.

Fire compartments
The spread of fire within a building is restricted by sub-dividing the building into compartments separated from one another by walls and/or floors of fire-resisting construction.
Dwellings
Property type A - Semi-detached and Terraced Houses
Walls that separate semi-detached or terraced houses are constructed as fire compartment walls and the houses are considered as separate buildings. Otherwise, the walls and floors within such dwellings are not constructed as fire compartment walls and floors. However, this does not mean that they do not require some degree of fire resistance. Under Building Regulations "Fire Safety" a minimum fire resistance is given as 30 minutes.
Property type B - Flats and Maisonettes
In buildings containing flats or maisonettes, every floor is constructed as a fire compartment floor and every wall that separates a flat or maisonette from any other part of the building is constructed as a fire compartment wall. Under Part B of the Building Regulations "Fire Safety" a period of fire resistance for fire compartment walls and ceilings will be at least 60 minutes.
Installing recessed or semi-recessed luminaires
In property types A , i.e. where walls and floors are not fire compartment walls and floors.
Tests carried out in 1996 by the DoE and TRADA to determine the effect of recessed downlighters [with no boxing or fire hoods ] on the fire resistance of a plasterboard and rectangular timber joist ceilling construction, concluded that they had little significant effect on fire ratings up to 30 minutes. The inferrence therefore is that at least with this type of ceiling it is not necessary to "box-in" or install fire hoods for the purpose of restoring the integrity of the fire resistance. However, where there is the possibilty that debris may accumulate or thermal insulation has been installed - for example in a roof space - a case could be made for "boxing in" or installing a hood to protect the luminaire and to create a void around it for heat dissipation. A clear void of 20cms around the luminaire and 75mm above may be considered reasonable, but manufacturers recommendations should always be followed where available.
In property types B, i.e where walls and floors are fire compartment walls and floors.
Part B of the Building Regulations "Fire Safety" permits openings to be made in fire compartment walls and floors "for certain purposes ... provided that they meet certain provisions". It is therefore advisable to clarify beforehand that these requirements would be met when proposing the installion of recessed luminaires. In any case, for fire compartments to be effective any openings must not present a weakness in the integrity of the construction and the fire resistance must be restored to be at least 60 minutes. The use of fire hoods or boxing-in could be considered as a way of achieving this but only if they meet the required fire resistance standards after installation. In some cases, often in kitchen and bathroom areas, a secondary "suspended" ceiling is installed to provide a means of hiding services or in some cases for sound insulation. In this instance, subject to recess depth, it is possible to install recessed luminaires without affecting the fire compartment ceiling above.
If in doubt consult your local authority Building Control Department.

Well an EICR is a report based on the wiring regs, so tests carried out in 1996 with inferred results don't come into it. If I wanted to code a downlight I'm pretty sure I could find justification in the wiring regs without a lot of looking, not that I'm in the habit of doing such things.
I would issue a code for anything I could justify that I felt needed pointing out to the customer.

 

[baldsparkies]

Well an EICR is a report based on the wiring regs, so tests carried out in 1996 with inferred results don't come into it. If I wanted to code a downlight I'm pretty sure I could find justification in the wiring regs without a lot of looking, not that I'm in the habit of doing such things.
I would issue a code for anything I could justify that I felt needed pointing out to the customer.

In fairness you would be issuing an opinion on a building regulation rather than BS7671 wiring regulation.
But what the hell, here we go again !!
You imply you would code a non fire rated down light !!
Your confident you can find justification in the wiring regs to do so !!
Let us know when you find it in BS7671, 1996 or 2015, cus up to now, a total no no for installing non fire rated down lights or those currently installed within building regs is simply not the case.
There are situations where its perfectly acceptable, like it or not.
If you want to code on a matter of personal preference,
Don't forget that loose stair tread you noticed whilst yer at it, give em there monies worth.

 

[Flanders]

However, where there is the possibilty that debris may accumulate or thermal insulation has been installed - for example in a roof space - a case could be made for "boxing in" or installing a hood to protect the luminaire and to create a void around it for heat dissipation. A clear void of 20cms around the luminaire and 75mm above may be considered reasonable, but manufacturers recommendations should always be followed where available

This is my reason for fitting fire rated down lights into ceilings above a roof space , but although i would do this I would not put it down as an observation on an EICR if non fire rated down light were installed as long as there was no sign of thermal damage to the fabric of the building