Washing machine intermittently trips RCD. Manufacturer declares machine fault-free and suggests faulty home electrics. What should I do?

[GreenGoblin]

Hi

I don’t know how resolve this so any helpful advice would be greatly appreciated. I have no electrical knowledge. I will try to be as clear and detailed as I can.

I’ve got a Bosch washing machine that’s two-and-a-half years old. Until early June, the machine has been flawless. But in June, my machine began intermittently tripping the electrics. At first it was one trip during the two hour cycle every couple of weeks, but this gradually grew to one trip almost every time I used it.

Naturally I presumed it was a fault with the machine because I don’t get any electrical trips when the machine is not in use. So I called Bosch and arranged an engineer visit. The engineer came and began by checking the mains power socket by plugging in a device with a bunch of LEDs on it. It didn’t show any faults. He then did some tests to rule out faults with the machine's major components (namely the motor and heating element).

He then unplugged the machine, pulled it out, took the back panel off and looked inside. After doing this, he said he couldn’t find any faults with the machine and suggested that the dedicated mains socket (for the machine) was faulty. Now this Bosch engineer had previously visited me two years ago when I had the same problem with my previous Bosch washer. Back then he also declared the machine fault free and said it was my mains socket at fault. He explained that the wires are likely worn out and this is causing the trip.

So I reminded him that he gave me the same excuse two years ago and asked him how my current washer was able to run for over two years without any problems. He said the wires inside the socket can get worn out, but sometimes it can keep working. I didn’t accept this explanation and asked him to remove the top panel of the machine to inspect the wires properly. He said he didn’t to do this and this started an argument. Anyway he ended up storming out.

I contacted Bosch and explained that I disagreed with the engineer’s conclusion and explained that I felt he didn’t inspect the machine properly. Bosch referred my case to their technical department and they came back and said that in their view the machine was inspected properly and is fault free. They said if the problem was with the machine the trips would be more frequent. Bosch said the likely cause of my problem is something called “nuisance tripping” as a result of earth leakage. They said I should contact an electrician and ensure that an RCD is fitted with a unit that has a symbol that I can best describe as two curly lines (my RCD doesn’t have this symbol).

Bosch told me I could get a second opinion from a second engineer, but that they stand by their technical department’s and the visiting engineer’s evaluation. I said I would be in touch when I had video evidence of the machine tripping.

From the day of the engineer’s visit (14 June), I filmed every last 30 minutes of the wash cycle as the tripping usually happens during this phase (where it goes through two rinse cycles, followed by a final spin) hoping to catch the fault on video and nothing happened. I filmed for two months and stopped a couple of weeks ago, having come to the conclusion that the fault had miraculously resolved itself.

Then today I run the machine and it trips the mains just as it was about start up its final spin. I reset the RCD and it completed the cycle from where it was interrupted. I just don’t know what to do now. I’m convinced the fault lies with the machine itself because my mains only trips when it is in operation. Nothing has changed in the last two months in terms of my electrical setup. A fault with the machine seems like the most obvious explanation. What I don’t get is why I had no problems since the engineer’s visit. If it really were the mains socket or my RCD, then how could I go 8 weeks using the machine without any trips?

I don’t know whether I should go back to Bosch or get an electrician to look at the RCD. Both will cost me (my machine is out of warranty). My questions are:

1. Where do you think the fault likely lies based on what I have described? Do you think it’s the machine or the RCD /electrics in my home?

2. Why do you think I have been able to get two months of fault free washing since the engineer’s visit? The engineer unplugged the machine during his visit. Could this have “disrupted” any earth leakage issues and given me some temporary relief from the intermittent tripping? (Usually the machine is permanently plugged into its dedicated mains socket.)

3. Do you think I should get in touch with an electrician or go back to Bosch and insist that there is a fault. I plan to start filming the machine again from tomorrow to get video evidence of it tripping during operation.


If you need any further information, feel free to ask.

I’d be grateful for any suggestions.

 

[Strima]

He explained that the wires are likely worn out and this is causing the trip.

What a complete and utter load of ****.

As the RCD is tripping at a similar time on the cycle it is logical to assume a fault with the machine. Possibly a fault with either motor or the drain pump but without looking at it this is very hard to diagnose over the internet.

 

[GBDamo]

Run the washing machine on an extension lead off another circuit.

If the fault persists then it is highly unlikely to be a circuit issue, you would have to have the same fault across two circuits.

Then get back in touch with botch and explain that you would like another visit.

 

[Wilko]

Hi - if I was nearby to you I’d happily pop by and ramp test your RCDs FOC just out of curiosity. This test gives an actual mA number for how much earth current causes the RCD to trip. This and an insulation resistance test will put paid to the “worn out wires” excuse.

 

[pc1966]

It is undoubtedly related to the machine operation if it trips at the same time every cycle. Pining it down to the machine as faulty or other factors needs a bit more testing.

As said above, try running an extension lead (proper 13A rated one) from a circuit on a different RCD and see if that changes anything.

Alternatively if you can say roughly where you are then someone on here might be able to help. Don't post personal info - just your town or similar is enough and someone can send you a private message if they are close.

 

[GreenGoblin]

What a complete and utter load of ****.

As the RCD is tripping at a similar time on the cycle it is logical to assume a fault with the machine. Possibly a fault with either motor or the drain pump but without looking at it this is very hard to diagnose over the internet.

Thanks for the reply, Strima.
I've spoken to a washing-machine engineer with several decades of experience on another forum. I explained my problem with the machine in detail and he said the Bosch engineer couldn't have inspected the wiring properly by simply looking through the back panel of the machine.

The engineer from the forum suggested that based on the symptoms, it could potentially be a stray or loose wire catching the drum when it is spinning up or down. He said to rule this out would require the top cover to be taken off for a proper inspection of the wiring and drum. The Bosch engineer (and Bosch) of course said this was not necessary.
The Bosch engineer told me the motor and heating element were fine based on the electrical tests he ran and a visual inspection of the motor he did through the hole in the back panel.

From my observation, I noticed the trips only happen when the machine is either ramping up for a spin or winding down after spin. It has never tripped during the actual wash cycle (when the heating element is active). . I get no trips when the machine is not in use. In my view, it surely has to be a fault with the washer.

I had a similar problem with my previous Bosch machine (the trips were more frequent), and the same engineer said it was my mains socket. He didn't even look inside the machine on that occasion. He told me to try it on another socket and declared the machine fault free.

I put it on another socket in the kitchen and the same thing happened which forced me to call out a second Bosch engineer. He attributed the fault to the motor. Luckily back then, that machine was only three weeks old from the date of purchase, so I wasn't charged for any of the engineer visits.

Now it will me another £120 to get a second Bosch engineer to look at it. I've explained to Bosch that I can't afford to pay for a second visit and that I just wanted the machine looked at properly, but they insist that the engineer inspected it properly.
The intermittent nature of the fault makes me feel as if Bosch doesn't believe me. I think if it could be replicated on demand my life would be easier. I am going to start filming it again from tomorrow so I have some video evidence.

Hi - if I was nearby to you I’d happily pop by and ramp test your RCDs FOC just out of curiosity. This test gives an actual mA number for how much earth current causes the RCD to trip. This and an insulation resistance test will put paid to the “worn out wires” excuse.

Hi Wilko

Thank you. I'm in London, so I'm not sure whether that's nearby. I am thinking about getting it tested to rule out any electrical issues and strengthen my case against Bosch. I just don't know how I'm going to afford it. I'm on a very low income and I feel as if I've given away the £120 to Bosch for nothing because the fault is still present. I've tried to explain to Bosch that I am concerned about the appliance, more so because I live in a block with 68 flats. I've explained to them that I can't afford a second engineer visit to do what the first engineer should have done (a thorough inspection). But they are standing firm by their engineer and their technical department's evaluation. It's also been fault-free for two months since their engineer visited and I have no doubt this will encourage them to reaffirm their position. They told me if it were a problem with the machine itself, it would trip every time I used it.

I just get the impression that they are taking advantage of the fact that I can't do much because of my financial situation.

I don't have lot of appliances in my home. I have about 12 devices plugged in and not all of them are always on. The fridge, boiler, microwave, kettle, and washing machine are the "high power" appliances. The rest are what I would call low power devices (wireless router, home phone, laptop, a 19" flat panel tv, small lamp etc.). Just thought it would be worth posting just to give you an idea of the electrical setup in my home.
[automerge]1598818165[/automerge]

It is undoubtedly related to the machine operation if it trips at the same time every cycle. Pining it down to the machine as faulty or other factors needs a bit more testing.

As said above, try running an extension lead (proper 13A rated one) from a circuit on a different RCD and see if that changes anything.

Alternatively if you can say roughly where you are then someone on here might be able to help. Don't post personal info - just your town or similar is enough and someone can send you a private message if they are close.

Hi
Thanks for the reply.
The problem is the fault is intermittent. If it were possible to replicate it on demand, my life would be easier. If it could trip in front of the engineer, then that would be great. When he ran the spin test at maximum rpm and then the quick wash cycle, it didn't trip.
No doubt this would have further encouraged him to go with the "it's your power socket/rcd" diagnosis.

The engineer visited in mid June. From then until today I had no trips at all. I was videoing it on every occasion until a couple of weeks ago hoping it would trip. I got nothing.

Today it trips out of the blue. I am going to start filming again from tomorrow.
I don't even have a proper 13A extension at the moment. But even then, it could go weeks just as it did for the last two months without tripping.
It's just such a frustrating problem. I wasted so much time filming the last 30 minutes of the wash cycle and got nothing. And now it's back again. I hope I will be able to catch it tripping on video tomorrow, so at least I will have some visual proof that the fault is there.

 

[radiohead]

These sort of very occasional tripping issues can be very difficult to isolate. It is complicated by the fact that nuisance tripping of RCD's is not an uncommon inconvenience and can be unrelated to appliances actually in use at the time. I have a dual RCD board and I'd say I get a random trip of one for no apparent reason once or twice a year.
Personally I think if the tripping is now as infrequent as every couple of months I would not be wasting any money on more Bosch engineer visits. If there is a problem with the machine then it'll get to the point when it trips every time and then the fault will be traceable.

 

[GreenGoblin]

These sort of very occasional tripping issues can be very difficult to isolate. It is complicated by the fact that nuisance tripping of RCD's is not an uncommon inconvenience and can be unrelated to appliances actually in use at the time. I have a dual RCD board and I'd say I get a random trip of one for no apparent reason once or twice a year.
Personally I think if the tripping is now as infrequent as every couple of months I would not be wasting any money on more Bosch engineer visits. If there is a problem with the machine then it'll get to the point when it trips every time and then the fault will be traceable.

Hi radiohead
Thanks for the reply.
Before the engineer visit, it got to the point where the machine was tripping the RCD roughly every two uses (sometimes it would be twice in a row). But it would always only trip once in the cycle.
After the engineer visit, it went for over 8 weeks until today with not a single trip. This is why I wondered whether the fact that the engineer unplugged the machine may had an effect on any earth leakage issues.
Usually the machine is permanently plugged in as the socket is located in a hard to reach area. It's just bizarre how the machine can go for at least two months without tripping once.

 

[mattg4321]

Possibly he disturbed something when he inspected the machine.

It does sound more likely to be the machine at fault, but an RCD ramp test and some IR testing would be useful

 

[multimick]

I may get slayed for suggesting this but sometimes it's a lesson in life . You could go on and on and on with this and it could cost you big . Maybe it's time to.let go and get another wash machine and start afresh . Apologies for this statement but it's what I've learnt in my long experience

 

[nicebutdim]

I may get slayed for suggesting this but sometimes it's a lesson in life . You could go on and on and on with this and it could cost you big . Maybe it's time to.let go and get another wash machine and start afresh . Apologies for this statement but it's what I've learnt in my long experience

OP stated that this is the 2nd Bosch machine that has caused the same problem. A few basic checks of household electrics might be a worthwhile investment, starting with a ramp test of the RCD in question?

 

[Lister1987]

Is this machine plugged into the same circuit as everything else in the kitchen ('kitchen ring')?

What else is plugged into this circuit? If you could list everything and anything plugged in it would help.

My uneducated gut is thinking cumulative earth leakage tripping the RCD so that next step for me would be to unplug everything and start plugging things back in and monitoring the earth leakage.

I would combine that with a load check on a clamp meter while the machine e does a cycle, just to get an idea of how much leakage there is. It may just be you've got too much leakage and the RCD does its job.

You may find having a separate radial (on am RCBO) for your white goods eliminates the tripping issue

 

[Pete999]

Hi

I don’t know how resolve this so any helpful advice would be greatly appreciated. I have no electrical knowledge. I will try to be as clear and detailed as I can.

I’ve got a Bosch washing machine that’s two-and-a-half years old. Until early June, the machine has been flawless. But in June, my machine began intermittently tripping the electrics. At first it was one trip during the two hour cycle every couple of weeks, but this gradually grew to one trip almost every time I used it.

Naturally I presumed it was a fault with the machine because I don’t get any electrical trips when the machine is not in use. So I called Bosch and arranged an engineer visit. The engineer came and began by checking the mains power socket by plugging in a device with a bunch of LEDs on it. It didn’t show any faults. He then did some tests to rule out faults with the machine's major components (namely the motor and heating element).

He then unplugged the machine, pulled it out, took the back panel off and looked inside. After doing this, he said he couldn’t find any faults with the machine and suggested that the dedicated mains socket (for the machine) was faulty. Now this Bosch engineer had previously visited me two years ago when I had the same problem with my previous Bosch washer. Back then he also declared the machine fault free and said it was my mains socket at fault. He explained that the wires are likely worn out and this is causing the trip.

So I reminded him that he gave me the same excuse two years ago and asked him how my current washer was able to run for over two years without any problems. He said the wires inside the socket can get worn out, but sometimes it can keep working. I didn’t accept this explanation and asked him to remove the top panel of the machine to inspect the wires properly. He said he didn’t to do this and this started an argument. Anyway he ended up storming out.

I contacted Bosch and explained that I disagreed with the engineer’s conclusion and explained that I felt he didn’t inspect the machine properly. Bosch referred my case to their technical department and they came back and said that in their view the machine was inspected properly and is fault free. They said if the problem was with the machine the trips would be more frequent. Bosch said the likely cause of my problem is something called “nuisance tripping” as a result of earth leakage. They said I should contact an electrician and ensure that an RCD is fitted with a unit that has a symbol that I can best describe as two curly lines (my RCD doesn’t have this symbol).

Bosch told me I could get a second opinion from a second engineer, but that they stand by their technical department’s and the visiting engineer’s evaluation. I said I would be in touch when I had video evidence of the machine tripping.

From the day of the engineer’s visit (14 June), I filmed every last 30 minutes of the wash cycle as the tripping usually happens during this phase (where it goes through two rinse cycles, followed by a final spin) hoping to catch the fault on video and nothing happened. I filmed for two months and stopped a couple of weeks ago, having come to the conclusion that the fault had miraculously resolved itself.

Then today I run the machine and it trips the mains just as it was about start up its final spin. I reset the RCD and it completed the cycle from where it was interrupted. I just don’t know what to do now. I’m convinced the fault lies with the machine itself because my mains only trips when it is in operation. Nothing has changed in the last two months in terms of my electrical setup. A fault with the machine seems like the most obvious explanation. What I don’t get is why I had no problems since the engineer’s visit. If it really were the mains socket or my RCD, then how could I go 8 weeks using the machine without any trips?

I don’t know whether I should go back to Bosch or get an electrician to look at the RCD. Both will cost me (my machine is out of warranty). My questions are:

1. Where do you think the fault likely lies based on what I have described? Do you think it’s the machine or the RCD /electrics in my home?

2. Why do you think I have been able to get two months of fault free washing since the engineer’s visit? The engineer unplugged the machine during his visit. Could this have “disrupted” any earth leakage issues and given me some temporary relief from the intermittent tripping? (Usually the machine is permanently plugged into its dedicated mains socket.)

3. Do you think I should get in touch with an electrician or go back to Bosch and insist that there is a fault. I plan to start filming the machine again from tomorrow to get video evidence of it tripping during operation.


If you need any further information, feel free to ask.

I’d be grateful for any suggestions.

This issue is causing you a lot of heartache, if the machine company insist it's the installation casing the RCD to trip, then get your electrics tested by a competent Electrician by getting him to provide an EICR "Electrical Installation Condition Report!".

If all is well and there are no issues causing the RCD to trip then go back to Bosch with the evidence, you might even stand a chance of demanding they pay for the EICR and a replacement Machine, you'll never know until you try.

 

[radiohead]

This issue is causing you a lot of heartache, if the machine company insist it's the installation casing the RCD to trip, then get your electrics tested by a competent Electrician by getting him to provide an EICR "Electrical Installation Condition Report!".

If all is well and there are no issues causing the RCD to trip then go back to Bosch with the evidence, you might even stand a chance of demanding they pay for the EICR and a replacement Machine, you'll never know until you try.

There may well be good reason for an EICR to be carried out based on age or concern over the condition of the installation but PLEASE do NOT give the impression that an EICR is the golden ticket and will identify all issues with any installation. It wont, and it is NOT helpful to our trade suggest an EICR can identify all potential problems.
In the case of a single fault like this I can see no reason to suggest an EICR over specifically attempting to identify the cause of the problem. If during investigation there is doubt over condition of the installation then an EICR can be recommended.
To the OP I think it would be worth asking a competent electrician to carry out an insulation resistance test on your entire installation . This wont take long (an hours labour) and should identify any N-E faults which can give rise to the misleading impression that a particular appliance is causing the problem.
I also have a great deal of sympathy with Bosch. Unless the machine is actually causing the problem at the time of the visit then it is hardly likely that it will be identified.
[automerge]1598860218[/automerge]
Optimistic!
Pete I'd like you to explain how you think an EICR will identify every single problem with an installation, have you ever actually carried out an EICR? You continually suggest on this forum that they are the answer to everything.
[automerge]1598860365[/automerge]

 

[Pete999]

There may well be good reason for an EICR to be carried out based on age or concern over the condition of the installation but PLEASE do NOT give the impression that an EICR is the golden ticket and will identify all issues with any installation. It wont, and it is NOT helpful to our trade suggest an EICR can identify all potential problems.
In the case of a single fault like this I can see no reason to suggest an EICR over specifically attempting to identify the cause of the problem. If during investigation there is doubt over condition of the installation then an EICR can be recommended.
To the OP I think it would be worth asking a competent electrician to carry out an insulation resistance test on your entire installation . This wont take long (an hours labour) and should identify any N-E faults which can give rise to the misleading impression that a particular appliance is causing the problem.
I also have a great deal of sympathy with Bosch. Unless the machine is actually causing the problem at the time of the visit then it is hardly likely that it will be identified.
[automerge]1598860218[/automerge]
Optimistic!
Pete I'd like you to explain how you think an EICR will identify every single problem with an installation, have you ever actually carried out an EICR? You continually suggest on this forum that they are the answer to everything.

You say in your post to get an electrician to do an IR test, but with an EICR the electrician should be doing a lot more tests, I was thinking along the line if the EICR turned out to be satisfactory, then that may go some way to proving, nay indicating that the fault may in some way lie with the WM ,I also feel that getting a Spark to do an IR test is not going the full distance, a satisfactory EICR should do that, a signed document if you like.