What has happened to the trade?

[baldyspark]

It seems that every time I check out the forum, so called qualified sparks are asking the most basic questions such as help my rcd is tripping, how do I test? Etc. So many chancers about nowadays who wouldnt know the first thing about fault finding and think Ra is a school subject. As for these courses that try to make an electrician in five weeks, they should be done for putting peoples lives at risk. Please mods take note, how come so many people disagree with the 5 week wonders yet this forum must agree as one sponsor actually provides this course?
Ill not even get started with all these domestic installers whove never even touched pyro, tray, contactors etc....

 

[guest119]

I try and stay clear of non-electrical talk but this sort of thread does seem to do the rounds quite a bit. Electrical Trainee are useless, what a sad state of affairs electrics is in... and so on.

I'm not sure what this kind of talk really achieves, I realise that people need to let off steam and have a good old moan but it doesn't change anything. If you feel that strongly about it then write to your MP demanding change. Tell all your electrician friends to do the same and maybe even start up some kind of web page or facebook petition! If you dont feel that strongly then I guess we'll have few more of these threads.

I am a Domestic Installer, I do a good job, I follow the regulations (99% of the time, perhaps 98!) and I dont charge peanuts.

I was fed up with my main job (nurse) and I made a change at age 40 and it feels great. If you are not happy with the electrical industry then make a change in your life, its risky and scary but probably worth it. Perhaps a plumber? :wink5:

Like maybe ELECTRICIANS FORUM ?????????????
Like this one would be if all the fakes/imposters/sham scam boys were banned.
Then we could talk to each other properly without being disturbed by some a hole wanting to know why his rcd is tripping or why sockets mcb blows when there is a wallpaper stripper working in the room, geezzz, talk about dumb down ffs.
But then of course Dan wouldnt get the advertising revenue because his web hits would be down.


Boydy

 

[Hawkmoon]

Sorry to pee on your thread,but you have to blame the death rate caused by faulty electrical installations
It just isn't high enough for a sympathetic hearing

If it ever was to get a lot lot higher, then there would be possibility of action
Possible but not probable

Agree totally

Despite the best efforts of the incompetent, electrical installations are inherently safe enough that the numbers of fatalities etc is unlikely to increase - government and Nic etc will continue to endorse these 'quick qual courses' - the Electrical Trainee course providers are unfortunately not going out of business anytime soon.

:nonod:

 

[Sintra]

Like maybe ELECTRICIANS FORUM ?????????????
Like this one would be if all the fakes/imposters/sham scam boys were banned.
Then we could talk to each other properly without being disturbed by some a hole wanting to know why his rcd is tripping or why sockets mcb blows when there is a wallpaper stripper working in the room, geezzz, talk about dumb down ffs.
But then of course Dan wouldnt get the advertising revenue because his web hits would be down.


Boydy

That's why we have started the DIY section of the forum and members can choose wether or not to post in it. Nobody is held at gunpoint to reply to anything they don't want to.

 

[guest119]

In Northern Ireland there is no such thing as a Electrical Trainee wonder. Any person that wishes to become an electrician completes a proper 4 year apprenticeship. There is no easy way in through the door. Why can the same not apply to the rest of the uk? Obviously these short courses are backed by the government by way of this part p nonsense. Surely if an electrician had to be time served then this part p nonsense could be forgotten about.

Rest my case.

Boydy

 

[Guest55]

the diy section is a great addition to the forum.

the fact i wont step foot in there for 1 second is the best endorsement i can give ;-)

 

[SirKit Breaker]

Until the industry grows some balls and insists that government legistrates so that all electricians are licenced with a certified level of competence NOTHING will change!
If you agree +1 this post and when we get to 1,000 I'll forward it to my MP.

Good luck mate, and i am on your side, but it will never happen. We already have a more than acceptable standard. Apprentice trained, appropriate other qualifications etc etc.

The "Short Courses" C&G 17th, inspect and test etc should be seen as supplementary to the apprenticeship or incorporated into it.

We cant overlook the sparks out there with no formal quals, there are plenty of sparks with grandfather rights, and we need to include these people. They have worked up though the ranks and seen a lot of change over a long period of time, and could probably write the apprenticeships and other courses even though they have never done any of them.

The 5 week wonders will always be there now, and they are not all bad, some will fit into the category above and now need some formal qual for whatever reason. So they maybe a electrical trainee in qualification but could have 30 or so years experience. The ones who don't, will take another 30 years to get there, you cant teach experience.

What makes life easier for electrical trainee is the fact that the people who push pens for a living have no concept of what an Electrical Apprenticeship involves or how long it takes. The only want to see the 17th edition qualification, and in their "Expert" opinion, this is the be all and end all qualification, and without it you are not an Electrician. If only they knew that the 17th edition is a course on how to find information from a book, and nothing more, then they could ask for an Argos Catalogue qualification and save us all the agro.

Cheers............Howard

 

[guest119]

Ive got Screwfix catalogue knowledge howard, does that count?

boydy

 

[SirKit Breaker]

Ive got Screwfix catalogue knowledge howard, does that count?

boydy

NOW NOW don't be silly! You know the screwfix catalogue is much more difficult to use than the regs, you are now into HNC territory.

 

[Guest55]

Ive got Screwfix catalogue knowledge howard, does that count?

boydy

prove it , whats trade price on a dozen tubes of gripfill ?

;-)

 

[telectrix]

prove it , whats trade price on a dozen tubes of gripfill ?

;-)

£23.15 + vat.

 

[wigglies]

I'm a registered electrician that did a 4 week course... I'd like to point out that actually the industry can attract experienced, motivated and intelligent people by offering a 4 week course. I've worked for 18 years in other industries, including 16 years in aviation in the RN. The standards and adherence to regulations that were instilled in me from the RN are immediately relevant and transferable to being an electrician. I can't condone people being and ignorant and reckless, But I actually think the issue is more to do with maturity and integrity than simply a lack of a 4 year apprenticeship, which great as it may be, I'd never have embarked on if it had been my only way into the industry.

 

[Engineer54]

Before we go any further, you are NOT an electrician, not with just a 4 week course under your belt, of that i can assure you!!

Not sure what you're trying to convince us of here, but whatever it is it'll not convince the qualified electricians here, that a 4 week course with a meaningless qualification at the end of it will make ANYONE competent (let alone become an electrician) to go into unsuspecting peoples homes and start mucking around with electric's.

There are far better ways of learning this trade and becoming qualified, for those older entrants, but it's going to take you a damned sight longer than 4 weeks. The reason you chose getting into the electrical industry, is because it's been made far too easy for any Tom Dick or Harry to get in via the backdoor!!

 

[wigglies]

Before we go any further, you are NOT an electrician, not with just a 4 week course under your belt, of that i can assure you!!

Not sure what you're trying to convince us of here, but whatever it is it'll not convince the qualified electricians here, that a 4 week course with a meaningless qualification at the end of it will make ANYONE competent (let alone become an electrician) to go into unsuspecting peoples homes and start mucking around with electric's.

There are far better ways of learning this trade and becoming qualified, for those older entrants, but it's going to take you a damned sight longer than 4 weeks. The reason you chose getting into the electrical industry, is because it's been made far too easy for any Tom Dick or Harry to get in via the backdoor!!

I can totally understand where you're coming from - if you've spent many years building a skill base, knowledge, a business, loyal customers etc and have become a consummate and very experienced professional, then some 4-weeker upstart calling themselves an electrician is going to grate a little bit. But I'm more of an electrician that some hapless DIYer who simply knows how to make a circuit work regardless of whether it's safe or not. So I'm not trying to convince you of anything.

However, competence is not the same as experience - Engineer54 i'm guessing you are competent AND experienced. Competent is defined as having sufficient training - and if on a job I'm faced with something that I don't understand, then I stop and either get advice & help - I certainly don't "muck around" with peoples' electrical installations. Which is where my point about integrity and maturity comes in - it means knowing your limits. Nobody knows everything - we're all on a spectrum of experience so don't put the newer guys down. Please.

 

[UNG]

I'm a registered electrician that did a 4 week course... I'd like to point out that actually the industry can attract experienced, motivated and intelligent people by offering a 4 week course. I've worked for 18 years in other industries, including 16 years in aviation in the RN. The standards and adherence to regulations that were instilled in me from the RN are immediately relevant and transferable to being an electrician. I can't condone people being and ignorant and reckless, But I actually think the issue is more to do with maturity and integrity than simply a lack of a 4 year apprenticeship, which great as it may be,

I find with all these threads that a 3, 4 or 5 week course apparently qualifies people to justify their quick entry into the industry and dismiss the 4 year apprenticeship as unnecessary and an irrelevant waste of time and effort

I'd never have embarked on if it had been my only way into the industry.

Makes me wonder what your career options would have been had the electrical industry entry requirements meant studying for a longer period of time


It seems to get forgotten that an apprenticeship involved a mix of theory (day or block release at college) and on site practical work. The theory usually involved 38 weeks day release for a minimum of 3 years to get the required City & Guilds qualifications not the few weeks to get some peripheral C & G qualifications that some believe make them "Qualified" is it any wonder that this causes so much division in this industry

 

[Engineer54]

I find with all these threads that a 3, 4 or 5 week course apparently qualifies people to justify their quick entry into the industry and dismiss the 4 year apprenticeship as unnecessary and irrelevant waste of time and effort



Makes me wonder what your career options would have been had the electrical industry entry requirements meant studying for a longer period of time


It seems to get forgotten that an apprenticeship involved a mix of theory (day or block release at college) and on site practical work. The theory usually involved 38 weeks day release for a minimum of 3 years to get the required City & Guilds qualifications not the few weeks to get some peripheral C & G qualifications that some believe make them "Qualified" is it any wonder that this causes so much division in this industry

And that's a pretty fair all round commentary, that i totally agree with!!

 

[guest119]

I'm a registered electrician that did a 4 week course... I'd like to point out that actually the industry can attract experienced, motivated and intelligent people by offering a 4 week course. I've worked for 18 years in other industries, including 16 years in aviation in the RN. The standards and adherence to regulations that were instilled in me from the RN are immediately relevant and transferable to being an electrician. I can't condone people being and ignorant and reckless, But I actually think the issue is more to do with maturity and integrity than simply a lack of a 4 year apprenticeship, which great as it may be, I'd never have embarked on if it had been my only way into the industry.

If this is a carefully constructed wind up, well done.
If you are for real.....:-------:

Boydy

 

[GMES]

4 weeks to become qualified my arse I have been on benders that have lasted longer. Have some respect for the trade you are entering. I also think training courses at mcdonalds are longer, which says it all really

 

[ipf]

I'm a registered electrician that did a 4 week course... I'd like to point out that actually the industry can attract experienced, motivated and intelligent people by offering a 4 week course. I've worked for 18 years in other industries, including 16 years in aviation in the RN. The standards and adherence to regulations that were instilled in me from the RN are immediately relevant and transferable to being an electrician. I can't condone people being and ignorant and reckless, But I actually think the issue is more to do with maturity and integrity than simply a lack of a 4 year apprenticeship, which great as it may be, I'd never have embarked on if it had been my only way into the industry.

Some good points regarding the ignorance, maturity and integrity, but it doesn't alter the fact that, no matter what standards have been instilled, they do not equate to the experience and knowledge required to be recognised as a qualified electrician.

 

[wigglies]

Some responses have suggested that I am being disrespectful, dismissive of apprenticeships and that I muck around with unsuspecting people's electrics. I wasn't aware at all that I'd given that impression - but forgive me if have.

I chose a new career in good faith and took the route that was open to me through the MOD. Although I worked bloody hard to pass C&G 2382, 2393, 2394 (and am due to take 2395) and my site inspection with NAPIT, am I to believe from this thread that in the industry these qualifications are not taken seriously? Sorry if that's a naive question but I'd like to get peoples honest thoughts.

 

[Hayeso32]

I work for a large subbie as an electrical supervisor and the j.i.b gold card as some people point out is I think the only way to prove competence. I have had some so called 5 week wonders turn up to site with plastic bags as their tool kit! But once you hand them drawings they realise they don't know what their doing and leave. That said some of the j.i.b sparks these days are only good for metalwork and when they come up against something technical they are in the same boat as the Electrical Trainee.

 

[MDJ]

I'm a registered electrician that did a 4 week course... I'd like to point out that actually the industry can attract experienced, motivated and intelligent people by offering a 4 week course. I've worked for 18 years in other industries, including 16 years in aviation in the RN. The standards and adherence to regulations that were instilled in me from the RN are immediately relevant and transferable to being an electrician. I can't condone people being and ignorant and reckless, But I actually think the issue is more to do with maturity and integrity than simply a lack of a 4 year apprenticeship, which great as it may be, I'd never have embarked on if it had been my only way into the industry.

Um, no your not

 

[Engineer54]

Some responses have suggested that I am being disrespectful, dismissive of apprenticeships and that I muck around with unsuspecting people's electrics. I wasn't aware at all that I'd given that impression - but forgive me if have.

I chose a new career in good faith and took the route that was open to me through the MOD. Although I worked bloody hard to pass C&G 2382, 2393, 2394 (and am due to take 2395) and my site inspection with NAPIT, am I to believe from this thread that in the industry these qualifications are not taken seriously? Sorry if that's a naive question but I'd like to get peoples honest thoughts.

They are all add-on ( and in the case of C&G 2393 totally irrelevant) qualifications, so where is the core/foundation qualification?? In other words, you only have qualifications that are intended to ADD to the core qualification, they are not intended as stand alone qualifications in terms of being a qualified electrician!!

As for being registered with a scheme provider, that is just about as meaningless as it comes, you basically pay your fees and your in, nobody fails. It's the biggest scam since metrification of the £ s d!! lol!!

 

[GLENNSPARK]

I was tempted to 'like' that post Baldy as it sounds good natured, but I just haven't a clue what it means! :smiley2:

Yes.... there is a short course for nursing!

nurses assistant more like.

for short arse wiping course: form a que here.

 

[professional]

The fact that the Scheme operators set their own standards (via the EAS Committee) may explain their apparent ability to ruin the trade - the additional fact that they have (so far) avoided ANY scrutiny whatsoever may also explain their arrogance.

The only way of addressing the present farce is to ensure that evidence is collected to clearly demonstrate that the outrageous actions of the Scheme Operators have real consequences. Get copies of certificates and photographs before you carry out remedial work.

Currently, the Schemes are laughing at the trade as they merely have to ask for evidence - which we aren't collecting ....

 

[GLENNSPARK]

the diy section is a great addition to the forum.

the fact i wont step foot in there for 1 second is the best endorsement i can give ;-)

i wont go in it either...

if these half arsed chancers want to get into the industry...then they can go down the proper, recognised route...cant they..
and shame on this forum for allowing advertising space (and thus endorsing) these crappy enterprises...

 

[UNG]

I can totally understand where you're coming from - if you've spent many years building a skill base, knowledge, a business, loyal customers etc and have become a consummate and very experienced professional, then some 4-weeker upstart calling themselves an electrician is going to grate a little bit. But I'm more of an electrician that some hapless DIYer who simply knows how to make a circuit work regardless of whether it's safe or not. So I'm not trying to convince you of anything.

I don't think you do understand where the qualified and experienced sparks are coming from you mention "building a skill base, knowledge, a business, loyal customers etc" I can also assume that proper qualifications class as an etc in your book. To compare yourself as "more of an electrician than a hapless DIYer" IMO actually reflects the level you are at by your own admission

However, competence is not the same as experience - Engineer54 i'm guessing you are competent AND experienced. Competent is defined as having sufficient training - and if on a job I'm faced with something that I don't understand, then I stop and either get advice & help - I certainly don't "muck around" with peoples' electrical installations. Which is where my point about integrity and maturity comes in - it means knowing your limits. Nobody knows everything - we're all on a spectrum of experience so don't put the newer guys down. Please.

Your seem to be digging a bigger hole the more you comment, competence and experience is not the same as being properly qualified with the underpinning knowledge to complete the task in hand as many contributors are on this forum are.

The advice and help you need when you don't understand something will more often than not come from someone who is fully qualified and your comment seems to reflect the "Who wants to earn £54k a year" mentality where the options are 1/ Do a short course because I haven't got time 2/ Phone a friend 3/ Post a question on a forum 4/ Have a whinge when people don't take you seriously

The only thing I agree with you is that nobody knows it all and in the ever changing industry we are in every day is a learning day and IMO even the most qualified and experienced on this forum will admit that

Some responses have suggested that I am being disrespectful, dismissive of apprenticeships and that I muck around with unsuspecting people's electrics. I wasn't aware at all that I'd given that impression - but forgive me if have.

You and many others have been sold and sucked in by a dream you believe that 3 or 4 years training can be thrown in a training microwave and delivered in a matter of weeks the reality of life is that this is not case and most are left in debt without the proper qualifications to pursue the chosen career path

I chose a new career in good faith and took the route that was open to me through the MOD. Although I worked bloody hard to pass C&G 2382, 2393, 2394 (and am due to take 2395) and my site inspection with NAPIT, am I to believe from this thread that in the industry these qualifications are not taken seriously? Sorry if that's a naive question but I'd like to get peoples honest thoughts.

In choosing your new career you may not have researched it sufficiently to get an understanding of the qualifications required as mentioned previously all qualifications you have are additional and peripheral qualifications to a core qualification e.g. C&G 2330 that you don't have


It is about time the City & Guilds clamped down on the course / exam entry requirements and issuing additional and peripheral qualifications without the candidate having the necessary core qualifications to get the industry back to being properly qualified and not just competent, the 2360, 2330 etc appear to have no worth these days as they take to long to get

 

[wigglies]

I don't think you do understand where the qualified and experienced sparks are coming from you mention "building a skill base, knowledge, a business, loyal customers etc" I can also assume that proper qualifications class as an etc in your book. To compare yourself as "more of an electrician than a hapless DIYer" IMO actually reflects the level you are at by your own admission



Your seem to be digging a bigger hole the more you comment, competence and experience is not the same as being properly qualified with the underpinning knowledge to complete the task in hand as many contributors are on this forum are.

The advice and help you need when you don't understand something will more often than not come from someone who is fully qualified and your comment seems to reflect the "Who wants to earn £54k a year" mentality where the options are 1/ Do a short course because I haven't got time 2/ Phone a friend 3/ Post a question on a forum 4/ Have a whinge when people don't take you seriously

The only thing I agree with you is that nobody knows it all and in the ever changing industry we are in every day is a learning day and IMO even the most qualified and experienced on this forum will admit that



You and many others have been sold and sucked in by a dream you believe that 3 or 4 years training can be thrown in a training microwave and delivered in a matter of weeks the reality of life is that this is not case and most are left in debt without the proper qualifications to pursue the chosen career path



In choosing your new career you may not have researched it sufficiently to get an understanding of the qualifications required as mentioned previously all qualifications you have are additional and peripheral qualifications to a core qualification e.g. C&G 2330 that you don't have


It is about time the City & Guilds clamped down on the course / exam entry requirements and issuing additional and peripheral qualifications without the candidate having the necessary core qualifications to get the industry back to being properly qualified and not just competent, the 2360, 2330 etc appear to have no worth these days as they take to long to get

I'm not trying to dig a hole for myself - I am trying to understand the industry. I've not made any pretence about being experienced or "fully qualified", I merely said that I was a registered electrican... I will be sure to define that carefully in the future. The 2360 and 2330 are courses that I will look into - thank you for your comments and help.

 

[GLENNSPARK]

I don't think you do understand where the qualified and experienced sparks are coming from you mention "building a skill base, knowledge, a business, loyal customers etc" I can also assume that proper qualifications class as an etc in your book. To compare yourself as "more of an electrician than a hapless DIYer" IMO actually reflects the level you are at by your own admission



Your seem to be digging a bigger hole the more you comment, competence and experience is not the same as being properly qualified with the underpinning knowledge to complete the task in hand as many contributors are on this forum are.

The advice and help you need when you don't understand something will more often than not come from someone who is fully qualified and your comment seems to reflect the "Who wants to earn £54k a year" mentality where the options are 1/ Do a short course because I haven't got time 2/ Phone a friend 3/ Post a question on a forum 4/ Have a whinge when people don't take you seriously

The only thing I agree with you is that nobody knows it all and in the ever changing industry we are in every day is a learning day and IMO even the most qualified and experienced on this forum will admit that



You and many others have been sold and sucked in by a dream you believe that 3 or 4 years training can be thrown in a training microwave and delivered in a matter of weeks the reality of life is that this is not case and most are left in debt without the proper qualifications to pursue the chosen career path



In choosing your new career you may not have researched it sufficiently to get an understanding of the qualifications required as mentioned previously all qualifications you have are additional and peripheral qualifications to a core qualification e.g. C&G 2330 that you don't have


It is about time the City & Guilds clamped down on the course / exam entry requirements and issuing additional and peripheral qualifications without the candidate having the necessary core qualifications to get the industry back to being properly qualified and not just competent, the 2360, 2330 etc appear to have no worth these days as they take to long to get

who said owt worth while was easy?..
or just handed out like buns?

 

[Zeno]

The Schemes in my opinion are responsible for this dangerous state of affairs, they have failed to show any responsibility in ensuring that people in their Schemes are safe to work in the homes of the Public. They talk of Competent Qualified Electricians, but they will not use those words in the Certification process, NONE of those words appear. They slyly hide behind words about meeting the requirements of membership etc

 

[Engineer54]

I'm not trying to dig a hole for myself - I am trying to understand the industry. I've not made any pretence about being experienced or "fully qualified", I merely said that I was a registered electrican... I will be sure to define that carefully in the future. The 2360 and 2330 are courses that I will look into - thank you for your comments and help.

Alas, you'll have look into the history books for those two courses!! There is a new kid on the block now, that comes i believe in two parts (NVQ), the C&G number of which, i am still not familier with, but someone here soon tell you!!

 

[Rampage]

It was exactly the same when I worked in factory's. All the old people standing around moaning that the company were taking on Polish staff as they were cheaper. Instead of getting on and proving their worth they would just moan about it.
Pretty much the same as in here!
If you want to do something about it then do something about it! Moaning amounst yourselves won't do anything! Get yourselves organised and do something!
No doubt no-one will.

 

[Essexboy7]

I'm a registered electrician that did a 4 week course... I'd like to point out that actually the industry can attract experienced, motivated and intelligent people by offering a 4 week course. I've worked for 18 years in other industries, including 16 years in aviation in the RN. The standards and adherence to regulations that were instilled in me from the RN are immediately relevant and transferable to being an electrician. I can't condone people being and ignorant and reckless, But I actually think the issue is more to do with maturity and integrity than simply a lack of a 4 year apprenticeship, which great as it may be, I'd never have embarked on if it had been my only way into the industry.

You are talking out of your aris mate.I have been a spark for a lot longer then 16 years.Are you telling me that if i do a 4 week course i can go and fly a plane in the RN?

 

[jamesBoater]

City & Guilds 2357

Alas, you'll have look into the history books for those two courses!! There is a new kid on the block now, that comes i believe in two parts (NVQ), the C&G number of which, i am still not familier with, but someone here soon tell you!!

 

[sparky1502]

I competed my 2330 l2/l3 and nvq the old fashioned way 1 day a week, and I have to say the nvq sorted the men from the boys, 13 lads jacked in the course because they couldn't complete the nvq requirements or they didn't have the drive to see the course through. This needs to be the route in to the trade we love. If you can't meet the basic requirements you cant become an electrician. We as qualified electricians do need to make a stand, that could be by refusing to comment on any post that we deem to be a inexperience Electrical Trainee who could be putting themselves and others at risk. Let's start making a stand !!!

 

[dubnut71]

City & Guilds 2357

I did mine the old fashioned way too back between 1988 and 90 then am2 and got my time out thereafter.
Back to college today to do my 2381-12 and I assumed I would be in a class of other sparks. Indeed I am not! Out of the 13 only 6 are time served lads/ lasses. Respect however to the Spanish lad who was there today, already a time served spark over there and working as a kitchen porter to pay his way through the city and guilds courses here to get a grade card.
The rest are a mixed bag, one mechanical fitter adding to his skills, one fireman who was a time served lad but left the trade and one Eastern European chap who neither gave any explanation why he was there or what he intended to do with the qualification....

shame on me for waiting so long to come back and do 17th ed but the attendees did open my eyes a bit!