What is a Domestic Installer ?

[Dave Buchan]

Hi guys,

Here's an interesting one for you, if you look at the attachment on this post from the IET they define a domestic installer as " not an electrician "

If you go to the niceic website and click the 'FIND ELECTRICIAN' tab and select 'ALL ELECTRICAL WORK' it will display various domestic installers and approved contractors in your local area.

So is the domestic installer an ELECTRICIAN?

According to the people who write the national safety standards apparently this is not the case.......

Yet the guys who regulate them for crucial safety reasons seem to know otherwise.....

So who is right?

The IET

or

NICEIC

 

[Jurassic Sparks]

i have seen some of this niciec work!!
NICIEC test sticker on the C/U
BS951 clamp on the sheath of the incoming lead sheath supply cable to provide the earth!!!
gas meter bonded on the supply side
I photographed it and scanned the NICIEC book hints adn tips and forwarded it to the body responsible for the property with a note telling them to check all the rest of them!
seen an NICIEC donestic installer fit a kitchen and change a C/U
the following faults were present
an exposed unearthed 240v light fitting int he shower cubicle
the old immersion heater cables taped up behind the tiles in the same cubicle
all sockets and switchgear shwoing signs of green slime
no smoke detectors fitted (partial refurb ) Part P
I stick with NAPIT they seem to be very thorough and their training courses are good as well

 

[Engineer54]

This man is not a DI. He is an engineer, hats off to you.

But not an Electrical Engineer!!!

 

[baldsparkies]

Graeme and baldsparkies thanks for your input. Points taken aboard. totally agree with regards to practical experience and product knowledge. I am in know way proud to admit lack of experience. just highlighting where I stand. After reading the thread I thought there is absolutely no point in persuing the DI route, saying that I am still in two minds.
But your feedback is appreciated.

Onetrack, Not for one moment am I trying to put you off in any way.
Just don't go in blind.
Domestic installs can be a minefield until you build confidence through experience.
The average house owner is very wary when you first turn up at there door. Unless you have an experienced aproach, and know when to cross T's dot I's and cover your preverbial, they will pounce on you like a wounded animal.
The politics involved in house bashing is enough to put a house of commons debate to shame.
I am glad most of my work is commercial, yes its more specialised, yes its often more involved, but the rewards are better, and your dealing with people who usually have a good understanding of what they want and what your doing, and why.
Home owners have to be treated with kid gloves. You need to be a furniture remover, carpet fitter, house cleaner, and have the patience of a saint. And if your lucky, when youv'e finished, you might get paid !!

 

[electromonkey]

I have worked in a training centre on the final week practical course giving a helping hand to the staff who are training the guys and gals in their final week.

The last week comprises of designing an installation where the "students" had to present their design and show their calculations and demonstrate how to use the regs book. They then take this electrical design and construct it in their own booth without assistance, like an AM2 but geared only for a domestic installation. After it has been completed, the student then tests the installation and has a Q&A with their assessor. After that, deliberate faults are put on to their circuits which then have to be found through a combination of inspecting and testing. After completing that, they can then swap booths with someone else and practice more testing and fault finding.

I did find to the most part by the end of that final week that most students had a good grasp of what they were doing.

Obviously the training is limited to certain scenarios i.e. working on timber frame properties only and it focuses on installation as opposed to adding to existing circuits and gives no practical assistance to working with an installation carried out by a DIYer from 20 years ago. However, it could be fair to say that plenty of people who go down the apprentice route also have similar experiences with only working on new builds etc.

I do think it is on the side of ignorance to assume that people who do the 5 week course have 5 weeks of theory, prac and exams and nothing else. From the people I had spoken to over the few weeks when I worked at one of these training centres, the majority took between 1 and 2 years to complete the course and over that time had their heads in books and working on past papers. Some as well worked with sparks as and when they could to gain as much hands on experience before deciding what to do once they had qualified and I should add, there were a few who didn't and needed to come back to re sit.

I can only speak from my experience at that particular centre (which I think now has gone bust, so they aren't necessarily the cash cows that people may think they are).

I would like to say however, as I have said on other posts previously. These intensive courses are fine in terms of the theory side of what you need to know to be a domestic installer, however, I do not think in most cases that they offer enough practical experience for someone to then go out working on their own, irrespective of weather they pass their on site assessment to self certify as well.

 

[Graeme Harrold]

But not an Electrical Engineer!!!

Neither are the majority of people on here.........NVQ level 3 does not constitute engineer status.. neither does a 3 year apprenticeship............usually an HNC/HND or degree will secure that, then to become chartered (been there done that and have the ties - they dont do t-shirts!!) you pay a scheme for the pleasure of putting letters after your name.....Oh and those letters I had were MIET, MIIRSM and MIRTE

 

[Jurassic Sparks]

A Competent person is actually defined in law
but its a bit like passing your driving test
I recall about 200 years ago when I passed my motorcycle test ( kickstart, gas lights, no helmets,and total loss lubrication) that the examiner said to me you have now passed your test but you need to learn to ride a motorcycle
been learning ever since, adn the same with electrical work, soem of these youngsters are quicker at learning than me and are far more competent than I ever was ( blame the war) however its all down top mental attitude and skill
when I did my training ( we had a king on the throne) I was told by one of the old geezers that as long as you looked at a job and could see that you could make improvements and do it better you were doing ok
complacency kills
I met a chap very very highly qualified he could work out impedances etc in his head graduate electrical and electronic engineer
was way above me, however he had installed seeral new circuits in his business premises and they were lethal
many of the sockets had in excess of 230v most hovering around 415v
no grommets
cable poorly installed
and he was also complaining about the high energy bills
I checked the laod was balanced on all 3 phases, not too bad
then walked into the large workshop to see about 40 striplights the old large tubes and inbuilt choke fittings and most of the tubes were tipped
worn flourescent tubes can draw up to 30 percent more energy plus give out 20 percent less light
he had done all sorts of calculations for weeks
I did 2 things
I cleaned the windows, and then installed new tubes
his meter bill dropped massivly
but its only knowledge that I have learnt over the years and you never stop learning
I have worked with time served electricians who terrify me, their work is awful
thankfully most of them are now retired or fried

 

[Jurassic Sparks]

I am an electrical technician
and many years of experience
I may be an old bugger but I am a clever one
Mi Dispiace non sono di qui

 

[baldsparkies]

Quote from Jurassic
"I recall about 200 years ago when I passed my motorcycle test ( kickstart, gas lights, no helmets,and total loss lubrication) that the examiner said to me you have now passed your test but you need to learn to ride a motorcycle
been learning ever since, adn the same with electrical work, soem of these youngsters are quicker at learning than me and are far more competent than I ever was ( blame the war) however its all down top mental attitude and skill"

Jurassic,
Passed my motorcycle test in 1970. Love em from Hyabusa to my Harley, Mind you at my age the Harley suits better. Have a look at the way this motorcycle cop handles a heavyweight Motorcycle. Now THAT'S what I call competant.
‪Donnie Williams - 2nd run‬‏ - YouTube

 

[Jurassic Sparks]

actually it may not have been total loss lubrication the examiner may have meant me???
these days its a little guzzi, a few more weeks and I shall be off through France, Switzerland and into Italy
real motorcyling country

 

[Engineer54]

Neither are the majority of people on here.........NVQ level 3 does not constitute engineer status.. neither does a 3 year apprenticeship............usually an HNC/HND or degree will secure that, then to become chartered (been there done that and have the ties - they dont do t-shirts!!) you pay a scheme for the pleasure of putting letters after your name.....Oh and those letters I had were MIET, MIIRSM and MIRTE

So, ....what are you telling us here, that your a Chartered Electrical Engineer, among other things also??

 

[Jurassic Sparks]

alas no motorcycles used total loss lubrication up to the late 20s
you will see a small pump on the tank with a glass window
as you crest a hill and extra pump is required to prevent seizure
of course nowadyas my motorcycle is EFI with catalytic convertor adn euro 3 compliant but I still have to pay 74 quid a year road tax whereas my daughters Citroen C1 to the same power costs 20 quid
damm and curse it

 

[Graeme Harrold]

So, ....what are you telling us here, that your a Chartered Electrical Engineer, among other things also??

Dont need to be an electrician to join!!!!

 

[Engineer54]

??????

 

[baldsparkies]

Dont need to be an electrician to join!!!!

No, but it does help. You have me intrigued sir. Exactly what disciplines are you competant in. Please feel free to brag.:biggrin5:

 

[Graeme Harrold]

Chartered Mechanical Engineer with loads of genset experience with field distribution
Health and Safety Advisor
TQ Practitioner (hence MCS was a walk in the park)
Technical documentation author
Qualled up to 1500bar on hydraulic systems
plus the ususal array of other skills required to run a multi-skilled workforce in a hostile environment
Downhill ski instructor
Snowboard instructor
BSAC assistant instructor
Can also make a mean cup of tea.................

Basically every one has a background with transferrable skills, with what I had done previous, plumbing would have been the easy option, but I like a challenge. Domestic installer was the only route in for me, done it passed with ease and still learning. I know where to draw the line and enjoy the work I do. Ive been fault finding on elctrical and electronic systems since I was an apprentice and would probably rate some of the DC systems more daunting than 230AC domestic.

Just remember the regs make no mention of qualified, just competant. Quals are just one method of prooving competance as is doing a good job. Ive been through 3 ELECSA Assessments without worry or hassle, mist be getting something right.

 

[Graeme Harrold]

??????

I made no mention of being a chartered electrician.....:vanish:

 

[Engineer54]

That's because there is no such animal!! But you did say you have been there, and got the tie to prove it?? So are you Chartered or not??

 

[Graeme Harrold]

Like I said before, you only remain chartered as long as you pay your subs...............bit like Part P :vanish:

 

[baldsparkies]

I know you types!!
Look at the other blokes willy in the shower room to see if its bigger than yours. lol

 

[Engineer54]

OK, Now i understand things much more clearly....

 

[sbrown2]

Transferable skills now thats the phrase!! I am a sparky by trade but work on a shift as a maintenance anything. Transferable skills and exposure to different situations as an apprentice ie locomotives, haulage systems, offices, ventilation systems. All of this gives experience that allows me to be more than just a maintenance electrician. I can now apply it to being a domestic or commercial electrician.
I work with quality engineers, group leaders, managers and I would say all of them, with intensive trining, could become a domestic spark. Do they want to be a spark? No. But they more than have the maturity and intelligence to achieve that goal. They also have qualities that are better than mine, maybe attention to detail, they make a tidier job. They would bring this to the vocation.
Going back to the origianal post yes a domestic installer is an electrician and I would say in a lot of senses a craft electrician would be a good title.

 

[Jurassic Sparks]

Downhill ski instructor
Snowboard instructor
Can also make a mean cup of tea.................

these are the most important qualifications
FUN and the ability to enjoy life
I went to a lecture once by Sir Anthony Quayle the actor
thought it would be right boring
instead he told us all about his time with SOE and the partisans
wow
and he said doing something dangerous is good for you
it gives you a sense of perspective into what is really important in life
Competent person as defined by BS7671
not law but the HS at work act is and would use this as a judgement
a person who possesses sufficient technical knowledge, relevant practical skills and experience for the nature of the electrical work undertaken, and is able at all times to prevent danger and, where appropriate, injury to him/herself and others

 

[JLD]

Are you serious?? ****, elbow etc etc <- make a well know saying that could be applied to these two !

Never going to happen, they like to make things as confusing as possible!!

lol

It is really irrelevant what you call yourself. The LAW, i.e. The Electricity at Work Regulations 1989, state that persons need to be competent. It does not state that a person can only be competent if they call themselves an "Electrician".

With regards to Domestic Installers being 4 week wonders I have found in my own experience them to often be more competent than some people who have been calling themselves "Electricians" for years. It doesn't matter what you call yourself it matters what you do.

 

[Engineer54]

It is really irrelevant what you call yourself. The LAW, i.e. The Electricity at Work Regulations 1989, state that persons need to be competent. It does not state that a person can only be competent if they call themselves an "Electrician".

With regards to Domestic Installers being 4 week wonders I have found in my own experience them to often be more competent than some people who have been calling themselves "Electricians" for years. It doesn't matter what you call yourself it matters what you do.

Are you actually being serious here??

 

[vitoboy]

4 week wonders have often been in the job for 20 years...done most of it...
some....not.
0 week wonders are worse