What is a Domestic Installer ?

[Dave Buchan]

Hi guys,

Here's an interesting one for you, if you look at the attachment on this post from the IET they define a domestic installer as " not an electrician "

If you go to the niceic website and click the 'FIND ELECTRICIAN' tab and select 'ALL ELECTRICAL WORK' it will display various domestic installers and approved contractors in your local area.

So is the domestic installer an ELECTRICIAN?

According to the people who write the national safety standards apparently this is not the case.......

Yet the guys who regulate them for crucial safety reasons seem to know otherwise.....

So who is right?

The IET

or

NICEIC

 

[Electricalserv]

Wade personally I think its bad news that you don't really understand much of the game and you are free to go and sign up to a part p scheme. Having said that you seem to have a good head on your shoulders and have more sense than to go & do that! Others though are doing it!

 

[wade88]

I know Serv and although i have done the fast track scheme and have been a somewhat liberal to my approach, i am quite reluctant to just run out and crack on, for several reasons, 1. i dont fancy dying though lack of knowledge,exp 2. i dont fancy killing anyone else for the same reasons 3. it just isnt practical for me in my position to assume that i can do everything with the exp i have. so i take on jobs i KNOW im happy to do...i change a lot of light bulbs lol.

I think the long and the short of all this, is that the fast track scheme will never stop. Its seen as a helping hand not a hinderance despite the dangers, so it simply needs to be made more thorough and the exams made more difficult. i was frankly disgusted along with lots of the others guys on my course, at the NO FAIL policy they have. in fact it made me furious, that when i was back in my hotel room reading up on my notes, doing extra work etc, the others were out getting drunk, acting the arse and scraping through with 45% compared to my 100% test results but were leaving there on the same grounding i was when they quite literally didnt have the faintest idea what was going on.

All our modules were competed in a week via 180 power point slides, and we did 2 weeks of mild practical finished up with exams you couldnt fail. its comical. but thats the way that is, and the focus needs to be on making that harder and dividing those that worked hard in those 7 weeks and who wanted to learn and removing the waste that was there like you say, to just get the right to slap a sticker on their vans and call themsevles electricians.

 

[pushrod]

If a driving instructor puts you in for a driving test and the tester passes you is it your fault if you are still not very good at driving? Or is it the fault of the people who trained you and said you are now ready to assessed for driving unaccompanied and the person who said yes you are now a good enough to be a sole driver. Will you become more confident and better at driving - will you ever make mistakes?
The answer may well be more regulation and assessment - do we want more regulation and assessment... you tell me.

 

[Big n Daft]

All the trades have become easy to get into, except gas because that kills you.
I always thought electric could kill, must have been wrong..............

 

[gibo]

you can do a short course to be a gas fitter too. you have to get 100% on each exam but you get 3 attempts (according to my gas fitter friend)

 

[gibo]

the EAL Part P course is being phased out in 2012 and replaced with a City and Guilds Level 3 qualification. So it looks like they are toughening it up

 

[Adam W]

The 2377 and 2382 are also level 3 qualifications, and they're easy open book multiple choice tests.
Changing the level is just ticking a box.

 

[leesturgess]

peoples life choices change over the years. I ended up in retail management after my A levels. I should be entitled to change careers if I wish and not be excluded from something if I didn't choose it when I was 16, ill advised and unwise.

you stick to your guns gibo its never to late

 

[gibo]

they are level 3 in PAT testing and wiring regs not installation. can't be sure til details are released but it's meant to be much more involved than what's available now. I'm a domestic installer but not interested in doing the bare minimum. at the moment the system is open to abuse and as with everything it will be abused

 

[Adam W]

This is what my college lecturers and I can't understand - you get a level 3 for doing 3 years in installation involving several practical tests, 2 written exams and several multiple choice tests, yet you can get a level 3 from a multiple choice test in reading a book.

 

[gibo]

the level 2 part p at the moment is multi choice and completed modules. not open book tho. I believe they are addressing concerns that it's too easy to do 5 weeks and set up on your own with the new course. however, I'll reserve judgement til it's all announced properly. I am a domestic installer and defend others on here but its because most will be continuing their training in the workplace. there are only a minority that think they can go it alone as soon as courses are finished. unfortunately we are all tarred with the same brush

 

[sbrown2]

For what its worth I think peoples(average mans) exposure to technology has vastly improved fromthe times of the original apprenticeship. I go into B&Q now and my lad (7 years old) is asking me about consumer units, switch, taps, boilers. Thus any part intelligent person will have given thought to how they could integrate this exposure and knowledge into entering a trade or career. Underpinning knowledge is important but not massively at craft level. Its more about doing a good job and knowing your limitations. Initially it surprised me that you could be trading as an installer/electrician so quickly but now I tend to look at the resources available to complete tasks. You can get online walk throughs for fitting a consumer unit and doing the tests. There will always be a place for the technicians and the engineers/managers and for many that feel they are being queezed they will have to consider moving into these roles.

 

[dandb]

I have to agree that I am against people who do 4 week course and then start their own company. But I studied for 6 years. I am extremely hard working and ensure that the work I complete safe and too a standard where I would be happy if it were in my own home, and I have an OCD.

Anyway I chose to become a DI as thats all I need to be. I have contracts with major house builders and I am a 1 man band. I will agree I might not have the experience than most of you chaps here but I work to the regs and isnt that what we all need to do?

I have carried out PIR's on new installations where someone works for a large electrical contractor and there have been numerous faults. I have also seen corners cut by the employees of the larger companies because its 4:30 on a friday and they want to get home.

I do this job because I love electrics and love building circuits. But I find it upsetting that fellow electricians, 50% of you, would say that I am not a proper electrician. Are we all not trying to do the same job.

:aureola:

 

[Engineer54]

You sound OK to me dandb!! And to prove it, here's your first ''Thank You!!!

 

[pauljpickering8]

I do this job because I love electrics and love building circuits. But I find it upsetting that fellow electricians, 50% of you, would say that I am not a proper electrician. Are we all not trying to do the same job.

:aureola:

I'd probably say more like 80% lol.

Just one question, if you studied for 6 years why would you no do the correct technical exams and become a "properly qualified" electrician. Although you only do houses at the minute you never know when you might want to expand. To me you are not a "proper" electrician unless you can show me your JIB card, or have the quals required to get a JIB card. No offense.

 

[sbrown2]

why do more? Do the minimum to earn money and get in the jobs market. Chances are all of the people coming into the electrical trade at an older age have got better marketing skills to attain the work.

 

[baldsparkies]

My honest opinion, after a lot of years and seeing all kinds of electricians is that. A domestic installer who has never gained experiance in the commercial world, ie on 3 phase work, composite panel wiring, conduit, trunking and tray switchgear and fault finding ect, ect, Should be considered an electrician, but with limited experiance. House bashing is basic electrical work. I know I know rant rave rant, but the fact is its true.
Commercial and industrial electrics require higher levels of knowledge and skills. Part P in the domestic world has proven this,5 week courses and your qualified, really !!! I don't think so.
These comments will upset none but the lesser experianced guys, Domestic electricians have there place yes, of course. But they do have limited knowledge. I am not talking about the guys who have done commercial work and chosen the domestic option, I am talking about the guys who have never done anything else. Sorry lads but lets be honest here. Being competant is about knowing what you DONT know. Not knowing what you do.

So as not to confuse,
Domestic Electrician (In my opinion is an Electrician)
Domestic Installer NO WAY. At best a guy who appreciates he needs to have a level of knowledge to complete minor electrical tasks, for the sake of safety. AT WORST A guy who wants to find the quickest and easiest route to confusing the general public into believing he is an Electrician.
Domestic/Commercial/ Industrial Electrician (The real deal) A full on sparks.

 

[sbrown2]

problem is with certain schemes and passing 2391 you can sign off for domestic work and then they throw in commercial and industrial for free!!!!!!!!!

 

[1shortcircuit]

Being competant is about knowing what you DONT know. Not knowing what you do.

competent- 1. having sufficient skill, knowledge, etc.; capable

 

[andrew692003]

My honest opinion, after a lot of years and seeing all kinds of electricians is that. A domestic installer who has never gained experiance in the commercial world, ie on 3 phase work, composite panel wiring, conduit, trunking and tray switchgear and fault finding ect, ect, Should be considered an electrician, but with limited experiance. House bashing is basic electrical work. I know I know rant rave rant, but the fact is its true.
Commercial and industrial electrics require higher levels of knowledge and skills. Part P in the domestic world has proven this,5 week courses and your qualified, really !!! I don't think so.

I hear what you're saying and in part agree with that but I've worked in industrial/commercial premises quite a bit but in the main I mostly work domestic/commercial.

I have seen quite a few 'Industrial' electricians/technicians that may know how to wire a ring main or a lighting circuit but you put them in a dwelling house thats 100 + (or any other house for that matter) year old and say 'go wire that'!! The mess is unimaginable because they have no idea how to run or apply any kind of grace to doing that job. It takes a certain skill to be able to do that and years of experience. I think it works both ways!!

Cheers

 

[Engineer54]

I have seen quite a few 'Industrial' electricians/technicians that may know how to wire a ring main or a lighting circuit but you put them in a dwelling house thats 100 + (or any other house for that matter) year old and say 'go wire that'!! The mess is unimaginable because they have no idea how to run or apply any kind of grace to doing that job. It takes a certain skill to be able to do that and years of experience. I think it works both ways!!

Cheers

The difference being, .....with a minimum of guidance an industrial/commercial electrician will be quite capable of wiring a domestic dwelling!! ...Whereas asking a Domestic electrician to undertake an industrial electricians position would not work, not without some very real intensive training... And it's nothing to do with being able to throw in conduit and trunking installations and the like, but everything to do with 3 Phase, motors, motor control, cable jointing, breaker set-ups, PLC programming, fault finding. ...Do i need to go on???

 

[baldsparkies]

I don't feel a lack of experiance is any excuse for not taking care in someones home. I can see your point of view, and feel there is merit in what you say.
In fairness though years of experiance to wire a house ??
A bit of forward planning, knowing which way your boards and joists run, Not taking up to many boards cus a bit of MT 2 lid can work wonders, following routes from existing wiring, and pulling in cables through old capping with just a bit of chopping away where neccassary if possible can all aid in a good clean job. Tidying as you go and using a vacuam cleaner and dust sheets isn't rocket science either.
I have to say, I would rather have a commercial sparks give me a hand with a domestic rewire, than a domestic sparks, give me a hand with a commercial re wire. Having experienced both scenarios I would tend to hold true to what I have said.

 

[baldsparkies]

Great minds Engi 54 lol.

 

[Engineer54]

I don't feel a lack of experiance is any excuse for not taking care in someones home. I can see your point of view, and feel there is merit in what you say.
In fairness though years of experiance to wire a house ??
A bit of forward planning, knowing which way your boards and joists run, Not taking up to many boards cus a bit of MT 2 lid can work wonders, following routes from existing wiring, and pulling in cables through old capping with just a bit of chopping away where neccassary if possible can all aid in a good clean job. Tidying as you go and using a vacuam cleaner and dust sheets isn't rocket science either.
I have to say, I would rather have a commercial sparks give me a hand with a domestic rewire, than a domestic sparks, give me a hand with a commercial re wire. Having experienced both scenarios I would tend to hold true to what I have said.

I'm not saying that an industrial type electrician will be able to make a profit by undertaking domestic work, straight off the bat, so to speak, as it will probably take him 3 times as long... But it would when finished be done to a good standard, and i doubt if he'd have to be shown ''how to'' twice!!...lol!!

Most of these electricians would have gone through a general training taking in BS7671 anyway, just that they would need a little guidance on what they had over the years ...Forgotten!!

 

[edrobbo8]

Is this not similar with all the CPCS cards and the like? For example, I can drive AND operate a rough terrain telescopic handler (JCB Loadall to you and me) but because I did the certificate with Lantra, I can't drive one on a building site? Does that make me a competent operator? Similar with 360s, you can hold a ticket for a 21 tonne machine, yet on some sites you wouldn't be allowed to drive a 3.5 tonne machine?!

So the domestic installer argument is slightly similar, and maybe is just catching up with the other construction industries in how it certificates people?