What LED failure rate is acceptable?

[Davisonp]

Hi,

What do people consider is an acceptable failure level for LED bulbs?

I have two examples, both from TLC "LEDLite" home brand lights.

1st, I fitted 6 of their 8W filament LED bulbs with 2 years guarantee in my parents house, and 3 have failed within the first year. (50% failure in half the guarantee period)

2nd I fitted 45 “LED Fire Rated Downlight” lamps (all in one fitting) with 5 year guarantee. Two years in and there are already 6 lamps that have failed, so that is over 10% failure in less than half the guarantee.

I would like to tell TLC that a 50% failure rate is unacceptable and get a full refund on all 6 lamps since they are not fit for purpose, but what about the 10% failure on the 45 lamps?

 

[Andy78]

Depends what is deemed acceptable to you and to the supplier ?
50% is obviously a batch replacement or refund.
10% after 2 years on sealed units is worrying too. Did you get those from TLC too ?

 

[Davisonp]

Depends what is deemed acceptable to you and to the supplier ?
50% is obviously a batch replacement or refund.
10% after 2 years on sealed units is worrying too. Did you get those from TLC too ?

Everyting from TLC. I am stopping using them. Problems with the LED GU10's as well.

 

[chudson]

If the integrated lights are halers then TLC have had massive amounts of returns on them. In some cases 100%. The LED lamps they sell are made by ledlite and some batches have been pretty poor, whilst overs are very good. Pot luck really

 

[Marvo]

Both failure rates are unacceptable. If I installed lamps and encountered a 50% failure rate in the first year I'd be lodging a claim for a complete set of replacements as well as my labour and travelling costs.

 

[HandySparks]

If the integrated lights are halers then TLC have had massive amounts of returns on them. In some cases 100%. The LED lamps they sell are made by ledlite and some batches have been pretty poor, whilst overs are very good. Pot luck really

I mostly fit LEDlite from TLC and I've had occasional bad batches. However, I've always had a good, no-quibble, response to problems; either supplying replacements for failed units or (once) for a whole installation where about 4 out of 15 had failed.

For future reference, has anyone fitted a large number of a particular LED downlight over an extended period with zero failures?

 

[Andy78]

I mostly fit LEDlite from TLC and I've had occasional bad batches. However, I've always had a good, no-quibble, response to problems; either supplying replacements for failed units or (once) for a whole installation where about 4 out of 15 had failed.

For future reference, has anyone fitted a large number of a particular LED downlight over an extended period with zero failures?

Me and a mate have both fitted hundreds of LEDhut GU10s with less than a 1% reported failure rate. This info is dependant on customers getting back to us of course. Having said that, I also had some intergrated led downlights from them with a 100% failure rate.

 

[chudson]

For future reference, has anyone fitted a large number of a particular LED downlight over an extended period with zero failures?

Never had a failure on a Click integrated downlight yet.

 

[Midwest]

I installed some Ledlite GU10 lamps in my property 7 years ago, with no failures. Shame 'cos I would like to use something a bit more modern/efficient!

Fit loads of JCC FGLED fittings, and had a few failures. But they were replaced no quibble, except my time in replacing them. Considering to use their Hybrid models in future, easier to replace.

 

[ChipFanDave]

I have had fitted Luceco LED down lights in the offices at work (48 in total). They are on about 10hr day for the last four months with no failures. They come with a 7yr guarantee if registered, and from Screwfix who have never argued with any returns. Of course I don't have to make any money from the job but £20 a go for something that so far looks like you can fit and forget seams reasonable.

 

[SJD]

Like several other posts, I have installed quite a few LEDlite from TLC, some batches have been fine while two batches in particular the failure rates have been over 50% - in one case 6 out of 8 failed. I wouldn't use them ever again.

Nowadays for integrated fittings I install Aurora Enlite E8. So far have only had one fail - faulty new out of the box, which was due to an earthed PCB pin puncturing the N cable when it was assembled.

 

[Davisonp]

If the integrated lights are halers then TLC have had massive amounts of returns on them. In some cases 100%. The LED lamps they sell are made by ledlite and some batches have been pretty poor, whilst overs are very good. Pot luck really

These are all the LEDLite range, and the first 10 lamps I installed 3.5 years ago are all still working. New ones are not reliable at all. I am switching to Phillips lamps from Screwfix where I can, but the LEDLite all in one downlight is a class 2 light and the only one I could find, so today I advised a client with no earthing to 12V lights that to replace them would be worth using the class 2 light from TLC but they need to be aware that even with the 5 year guarantee there is likely to be a 10%+ failure rate that they must be aware of.

 

[Wilko]

Nowadays for integrated fittings I install Aurora Enlite E8. So far have only had one fail - faulty new out of the box, which was due to an earthed PCB pin puncturing the N cable when it was assembled.

Yes, easy to fit and good light level. So far 100% good (sorry, sure to have jinxed the whole product line now )

 

[Davisonp]

I have had fitted Luceco LED down lights in the offices at work (48 in total). They are on about 10hr day for the last four months with no failures. They come with a 7yr guarantee if registered, and from Screwfix who have never argued with any returns. Of course I don't have to make any money from the job but £20 a go for something that so far looks like you can fit and forget seams reasonable.

Luceco is part of British General, and as far as reliability for lights in general goes I have been advised a while ago that I should stick to Phillips, British General and Osram.

I have used Luseco LED before. I had purchased two LEDLite LED florescent replacements from TLC and one tube buzzed badly when installed, so I got a replacement from TLC, and both worked. Two days later and a call from the client to say one of the lamps has gone out, so only one tube working out of three. I swapped them both for Luseco from Screwfix and no problem for over six months now.

 

[Alla Musica]

Sorry for being silly, but wondering if anyone has come across any failures of GU10 fittings (the fitting itself, not the bulb)?

 

[DefyG]

Sorry for being silly, but wondering if anyone has come across any failures of GU10 fittings (the fitting itself, not the bulb)?

A few mechanical failures but not electrical, why do you ask?

 

[brianmoooore]

Had failures of the twist on GU10 connector and wires on occasions, but only with 50W incandescent halogen lamps, presumably due to heat. No fitting failures with GU10 replacement LED lamps.

 

[Alla Musica]

Had failures of the twist on GU10 connector and wires on occasions, but only with 50W incandescent halogen lamps, presumably due to heat. No fitting failures with GU10 replacement LED lamps.

That's interesting. For those halogen bulbs did they have aluminum or dichroic reflectors?

 

[brianmoooore]

That's interesting. For those halogen bulbs did they have aluminum or dichroic reflectors?

The lamps I kept on the shelf and used with fittings I installed were dichroic, but I never really took much notice when fault finding in customers' houses.

 

[Alla Musica]

A few mechanical failures but not electrical, why do you ask?

I had quite a few traumatic instances of damaging the plasterboard (or its finish) while replacing downlighters, which is part of the reason why I prefer front-load GU10 fittings which contain no electronics and technically should last almost forever (only the bulb would fail). Thus simply curious what might still happen to these fittings!

 

[brianmoooore]

Any GU10 can with a 50W lamp, that had been installed for a while would have seriously cooked the plasterboard around it, making it difficult to remove without ceiling damage. Best way was to pull one side of the fitting down a few mm, then flip the fixing spring off of one of its pegs, then pull down the other side and repeat. Risked never seeing the springs again, but that's preferable to a ragged hole.

 

[Alla Musica]

The lamps I kept on the shelf and used with fittings I installed were dichroic, but I never really took much notice when fault finding in customers' houses.

I see - dichroic lamps might indeed overheat anything located above, especially if enclosed by the fire can! Also eard from a few sparks complaining about their clients' ceiling voids (or something else) ruined by dichroic halogen reflectors. But we're in the era of LEDs now anyway...

 

[Alla Musica]

Any GU10 can with a 50W lamp, that had been installed for a while would have seriously cooked the plasterboard around it, making it difficult to remove without ceiling damage. Best way was to pull one side of the fitting down a few mm, then flip the fixing spring off of one of its pegs, then pull down the other side and repeat. Risked never seeing the springs again, but that's preferable to a ragged hole.

Thanks - this has been really useful

Not a fan of halogen lamps anymore - not to mention the power consumption or cooking up the plasterboard, mains halogen lamps could arc and explode badly in the wrong circumstances...

 

[Teddy Lop]

Thanks - this has been really useful

Not a fan of halogen lamps anymore - not to mention the power consumption or cooking up the plasterboard, mains halogen lamps could arc and explode badly in the wrong circumstances...

Any halogen lamp, and several other types, have the capacity to explode on element failure, which is why a GU10 lamps element is double sealed, and other forms such as linear floodlight bulbs must be behind safety glass (although open-rated hardened glass lamps were an option)

I've never come across a failed GU10 connector, MR16's became unreliable but then they had 20x the current @ 4 amps each to deal with in addition to 300 odd degree heat.

 

[Alla Musica]

Any halogen lamp, and several other types, have the capacity to explode on element failure, which is why a GU10 lamps element is double sealed, and other forms such as linear floodlight bulbs must be behind safety glass (although open-rated hardened glass lamps were an option)

I've never come across a failed GU10 connector, MR16's became unreliable but then they had 20x the current @ 4 amps each to deal with in addition to 300 odd degree heat.

Just curious, have you ever come across any LV halogen exploding? Since they work on a far lower voltage, would they be less likely to arc than mains halogen? I know the quartz capsule could explode if heated non-uniformly (especially if in contact with hand grease), but might arcing be another cause for explosion, I guess? (I might be wrong...)

And speaking of the difference in current, is it that LV halogen normally runs hotter than mains halogen of the same wattage?

 

[Teddy Lop]

Just curious, have you ever come across any LV halogen exploding? Since they work on a far lower voltage, would they be less likely to arc than mains halogen? I know the quartz capsule could explode if heated non-uniformly (especially if in contact with hand grease), but might arcing be another cause for explosion, I guess? (I might be wrong...)

And speaking of the difference in current, is it that LV halogen normally runs hotter than mains halogen of the same wattage?

Bulb elements can collapse and short circuit (back when stuff was made properly filament bulbs incorporated fuses so they didn't knock out the lighting circuit) but in halogens shattering it's more the hot ruptured element hits the glass and the thermal shock is too much, easier to see on this linear, the two blobs are fragments of element melted its way through the glass which has re-set instead of shattering

As for current, remember P=IV, so drop the voltage by x20 and for a given power the current has to increase. I=P/V, 50/12, 4.16 amps.

I dont know if LV officially runs hotter - they do seem a little hotter and are measurably brighter than GU10's for a given wattage though

 

[Alla Musica]

Bulb elements can collapse and short circuit (back when stuff was made properly filament bulbs incorporated fuses so they didn't knock out the lighting circuit) but in halogens shattering it's more the hot ruptured element hits the glass and the thermal shock is too much, easier to see on this linear, the two blobs are fragments of element melted its way through the glass which has re-set instead of shattering
View attachment 119176

As for current, remember P=IV, so drop the voltage by x20 and for a given power the current has to increase. I=P/V, 50/12, 4.16 amps.

I dont know if LV officially runs hotter - they do seem a little hotter and are measurably brighter than GU10's for a given wattage though

That's really interesting and informative

Back when I was little (in China, late 1990s), mains halogen reflector bulbs (GU5.3 MR16 / GU4 MR11) were popular when it came to spotlights, which then were superseded by 12V ones from 2000s onwards before being eventuality substituted by LEDs.

Wonder if mains or LV halogen came earlier in the UK (should you ever know a bit of history)?

 

[Teddy Lop]

That's really interesting and informative

Back when I was little (in China, late 1990s), mains halogen reflector bulbs (GU5.3 MR16 / GU4 MR11) were popular when it came to spotlights, which then were superseded by 12V ones from 2000s onwards before being eventuality substituted by LEDs.

Wonder if mains or LV halogen came earlier in the UK (should you ever know a bit of history)?

GU5.3/4 IS 12v, unless china was doing weird stuff, there were 240v reflector bulbs (R80, etc) normally ES/SES before that. GU10 arrived in the late 90's to replace the need for transformers but the 12v's were still better than GU10 in terms of light quality... then LED kind of did away with everything.

Ask me how many of those rotten CFL 's that were made with long necks so you couldn't put standard halogens in them [bEcOz EnViRONs DURRR] got ripped out and replaced with something that worked.

 

[Alla Musica]

GU5.3/4 IS 12v, unless china was doing weird stuff

Unfortunately yes it IS just this weird. Even today those poor old joe remain in those older late 90s flats / houses so there's still a niche market for these. Look onto Taobao (Chinese equivalent for ebay) and you'll find: (1) 220V GU4 / GU5.3 reflectors still widely available from domestic brands like FSL, and (2) occasional negative reviews on 12V bi-pin reflectors from clients who inadvertently hooked them onto mains but didn't realize what was wrong.

Ask me how many of those rotten CFL 's that were made with long necks so you couldn't put standard halogens in them

Did you mean like tp24 downlights?