What will the outcome be of my assessment?

[HappyHippyDad]

Hello all..

I expect my full rewire will be assessed this year by Stroma.

It has been done very well and neatly and ticks all the regulation boxes..... apart from socket/switches heights. These I have kept as existing, approx 1350mm for switches and 300mm for sockets.

I have rang Stroma and they have said that a full rewire needs to meet Part M requirements for these heights. I realise BS7671 553.1.6 doesn't give these heights but Part M does and if Stroma say it has to be then there's no arguing really. Also, even though the vast majority of threads say that a rewire does not need to meet part M heights I believe it does as Section 0, 0.2 says part M applies to new builds and also 'Material alterations' of existing dwellings.

Basically my question is 'could they possible make me change all the heights'? I can't believe they would as that's crazy, but just looking for reassurance. I expect it will go down as a note and be checked for the following year to make sure I have adhered to the heights?

 

[Nigel]

Part M, section 0, 0.2 says that part M refers to new dwellings AND dwellings undergoing material alteration.

I guess Stroma class a rewire as 'material alteration'. What exactly does material alteration mean?

'Material Alteration' means a building that is changing its use. For example a shop unit becoming a flat. Not changing the materials of the electrical installation.

 

[Nigel]

Part P and Part M are clear. New build only and on re-wires they can be positioned 'no worse' than they are currently.

 

[Midwest]

Part P and Part M are clear. New build only and on re-wires they can be positioned 'no worse' than they are currently.

Thats not quite true as I'm aware. The Documents apply to all building work, with some exemptions.

Part M would not apply to an alteration or extension to an existing dwelling. However, as I and others have already suggested a major refurbishment of a dwelling, e.g. completely renovated for example, requiring structural change, then Part M and others may be applied. There are 'limits on application'.

To say it applies only to new builds, is not quite correct IMO. Sorry if I'm being picky.

I think we are all agreed that in this instance a rewire does not constitute material alteration. But HHD will need to discuss this with his scheme. Its his assessment with them.

 

[Toneyz]

Part M, section 0, 0.2 says that part M refers to new dwellings AND dwellings undergoing material alteration.

I guess Stroma class a rewire as 'material alteration'. What exactly does material alteration mean?

When you totally gut the house, knock down walls, change the internal layout.

 

[Octopus]

When you totally gut the house, knock down walls, change the internal layout.

So where are the Buildings Regs definitions listed ?

It would be SO EASY for the DCLG to avoid all these issues

 

[Midwest]

So where are the Buildings Regs definitions listed ?

It would be SO EASY for the DCLG to avoid all these issues

Apparently somewhere material alteration (other than house to B&B e.g.) is defined; regulation 5. I've gone off to cook tea now. Can't be arsed anymore.

 

[Bob Geldoff1234]

I had my NIC assessment a month ago and took the inspector to a full rewire that I had done.No mention what so ever of switch heights or socket heights which I kept the same as existing.I am glad I'm not in Stroma,they sound to be a real pain in the ---.

 

[Toneyz]

So where are the Buildings Regs definitions listed ?

It would be SO EASY for the DCLG to avoid all these issues

I wasn't referring to a Building Regs list just my interpretation.

 

[johnduffell]

If you read part M carefully you will see what the applicability of the sockets is with respect to material alterations.

where M4(1) is the regulation dealing with premises where people with reduced mobility may visit.

Regarding "material alterations", it's self explanatory. Material meaning "has relevance to the compliance status" and alteration means "change made". So if you move a socket it's an alteration, if you keep it in the same place it isn't. So you can't move the socket down but you can move it up or keep in the same place.

Regarding "new dwellings" those would be either complete new build, or change of use e.g. from office or retail to domestic accomodation.

In summary - rewires/extensions - same or better. conversions from non domestic or complete rebuilds - fully compliant heights.

Hope that helps!

 

[HappyHippyDad]

Forget it and make no mention of it. From the posts on this thread I see no one stating the heights apply on a rewire, it is unanimous.

Thats pretty much what I've decided.
I'm going to use the rewire as its a god damn art work and they damn well better praise it rather than batter me for socket heights!

 

[westward10]

Let us know how you get on, good luck.

 

[Toneyz]

Is the assessor the same person that you have been in correspondence with at Stroma?

 

[Wilko]

...I'm going to use the rewire as its an art work and they better praise it ...

Forget the Assessor, you know whose opinion matters the most - pics please .

 

[HappyHippyDad]

Forget the Assessor, you know whose opinion matters the most - pics please .

I don't usually post pics as you know you'll get a battering as theres always something glaringly obvious that you've missed, but heh ho.... here goes .
Before (1)

After (1)

Before (2)

After (2)

Before (3)

After (4)

Always struggle to get the neutrals looking neat!

Ps.. I've written off to Stroma now, specifically mentioning 0.2 and 0.11 of Part M regarding 'material alterations' and the fact that a rewire isn't classed as a material alteration. I'll let you all know what the official response is.

 

[Octopus]

What the scams need to assess is compliance with BS 7671 , part p and whether sparks are aware of the other building regs ...

 

[Toneyz]

Well, what happens in the scenario a rewire where the customer does not want chasing of walls you are doing like for like rewire. If you had to do surface ie mini trunking you would be left with the old boxes at the old hights if you were to do Part M.

 

[7029 dave]

Scams making the rules up as they go nice. Anyway what nonsense about socket, switch heights on a rewire.

 

[Nigel]

Thats not quite true as I'm aware. The Documents apply to all building work, with some exemptions.

Part M would not apply to an alteration or extension to an existing dwelling. However, as I and others have already suggested a major refurbishment of a dwelling, e.g. completely renovated for example, requiring structural change, then Part M and others may be applied. There are 'limits on application'.

To say it applies only to new builds, is not quite correct IMO. Sorry if I'm being picky.

I think we are all agreed that in this instance a rewire does not constitute material alteration. But HHD will need to discuss this with his scheme. Its his assessment with them.

I just took it directly from the Part P document.

 

[Nigel]

Thats pretty much what I've decided.
I'm going to use the rewire as its a god damn art work and they damn well better praise it rather than batter me for socket heights!

No you should stand by your guns and school these people.

 

[JOURNEYMAN]

In recent years I've used several rewires for my annual assessments with Stroma now non of which were questioned over the socket and switch heights. The only times I've complied with Part M regarding socket and switch heights is on new builds and properties which have been gutted back to brick inside and likely to be used by disabled persons i.e. ground floor flats, bungalows etc. I shouldn't worry about it unless of course your assessor turns up in a wheelchair.

 

[Toneyz]

45 posts and nobody has posted about brown envelopes.

 

[telectrix]

45 posts and nobody has posted about brown envelopes.

maybe searching for brown envelopes that are between 450mm and 1200mm.

 

[Midwest]

One last thang, (as previously asked ) has this guidance come in an email etc, or was it verbal over the phone?

 

[Midwest]

I just took it directly from the Part P document.

I sorter stand corrected. The definition of material change (reg 5), gives 10 examples.

From the online Doc M;
Meaning of material change of use (reg 5), i) the building contains one room for residential purposes, contains a greater or lessor number of such rooms, than it previously did.
I think thats describing alteration or extension?

However, Requirements relating to material change of use (reg 6), does not list i), only change to hotels, institutions etc for application of M1 (access & use).

So give agree with you there.

But then the document bumbles around with not making it less compliant than it previously was or reduction, which I can't decipher! Which was my point really, that Doc M still can apply to an alteration or extension. I still agree that a rewire doesn't constitute a material change of use.

 

[Midwest]

I'll tried to up load that part of the doc, but the screen shot revealed personnel details . Gardeners weekly & knitting monthly.

This is better;