Will an RCD offer any protection in a building with NO earth circuit? | on ElectriciansForums

Discuss Will an RCD offer any protection in a building with NO earth circuit? in the UK Electrical Forum area at ElectriciansForums.net

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I live in Phnom Penh, Cambodia and people die here regularly by electrocution. There is no earth wiring in the buildings, just live and neutral.

I am a member of an expats forum and the question arises: Will using an RCD device offer any protection at all?
I understand RCD's will go off with any leakage and that may have to include the human being the earth. At the moment my apartment has 8/16/32 amp circuit breakers and nothing else.

I can buy plug-in type RCD units to go between an appliance (like the washing machine) and the wall socket. Will this offer any protection even it is me being the earth! 😱
 
Short answer is yes it will give you added protection from death by electrocution
if more than 30mA passes through you then the rcd will turn the power off.
Is that on the basis that I will be the earth?

Will an RCD give an early warning that an appliance is already dangerous, i.e. as soon as I plug it in via the RCD it keeps tripping the RCD?
 
In short, the rcd compares live and neutral currents and trips the power if there is a difference between them
it can’t tell where the current is going other than if what flows out of the live is returning via the N
it will not detect over current.

the problem is, the off button or test button on the rcd will use the earth to create a small imbalance between the L and N to test the internal circuits of the rcd.
if you have nothing connected to the earth terminal then this will not work.
the rcd should still work but you will be unable to test it.
 
In short, the rcd compares live and neutral currents and trips the power if there is a difference between them
it can’t tell where the current is going other than if what flows out of the live is returning via the N
it will not detect over current.

the problem is, the off button or test button on the rcd will use the earth to create a small imbalance between the L and N to test the internal circuits of the rcd.
if you have nothing connected to the earth terminal then this will not work.
the rcd should still work but you will be unable to test it.
Very interesting. I am going to have some sent over form the UK soon so I will get them to test them first then send them.
Thanks for your time.
 
In short, the rcd compares live and neutral currents and trips the power if there is a difference between them
it can’t tell where the current is going other than if what flows out of the live is returning via the N
it will not detect over current.

the problem is, the off button or test button on the rcd will use the earth to create a small imbalance between the L and N to test the internal circuits of the rcd.
if you have nothing connected to the earth terminal then this will not work.
the rcd should still work but you will be unable to test it.
Many RCDs use a small resistor to push a small amount of current between L-N when you press the test button, no earth required to test. To Op, having an earthing system will enable breakers to trip due to short circuits to earth and will protect the building and reduce chances you touch something live like the casing of a toaster. If there is no earth then yes you become the path, but this is no different to many situations where live is directly touched by a person even if they have an earthing system, so yes its much better having RCDS than not . You can get a single up front RCD that goes at the beginning of your system. Make sure the RCD is designed for your countries mains voltage and frequency.
 
Without knowing the details of the supply system we can't say for certain whether an RCD will work or not.

It will depend largely on whether the neutral point at the substation transformer is actually connected to earth or not, if it isn't then the RCD won't work (although you shouldn't be able to get a shock to earth in this situation)
Nice to have you back........
 
What others have mentioned without going into detail is how the system would work with an RCD and faults.
It will depend largely on whether the neutral point at the substation transformer is actually connected to earth or not, if it isn't then the RCD won't work (although you shouldn't be able to get a shock to earth in this situation)
Unless it's a very small system, then I would suggest that the combination of leakage, capacitance, and faults in various parts will mean that it's highly unlikely to behave as a true floating system would be expected to - i.e. even in the absence of faults it would be possible to get a shock.

But back to the OP.
If your appliance develops a l-E fault, then without any earth connection the casing will become live - it will continue to work normally (assuming the fault doesn't itself interfere with operation), but will be dangerous to touch. Clearly some of these appliances will be within touching distance of extraneous earths, such as you'd find with a metal water pipe that's buried in the ground. So if you are leaning on the sink when you touch the (faulty) washing machine then you'll get a shock from the full mains voltage - but it is unlikely that the current will be sufficient to trip any breakers/fuses.

If you have an RCD in the circuit, then the fault in the appliance will still not trip anything - it'll sit there with a live case, and still working. But when you touch it, at the same time you have a conductive path to earth, then the RCD will detect the imbalance (not everything going out the live wire will be coming back on the neutral wire) and trip - hopefully quickly enough to prevent the shock being fatal.

But what if you aren't touching a sink that's earthed via the pipes ? Well then the question is how well earthed are you ? There is always some linkage via capacitance, but if you are in dry shoes & socks, on a dry floor, you might not get a shock - just a bit of a tingle, and not enough current to trip the RCD.
I recall many years ago I worked on a farm (I also knew fairly little about electrics and safety, and had no test equipment) - this was before RCDs were common. We had a free-standing water heater, and started noticing a tingle when we touched it. We were always wearing rubber wellies, so even though we were stood on a wet floor which would provide a fairly decent earth, it did no more than give us a tingle. When I looked, the contacts for the earth pin in the socket (an old 15A round pin one) had been bent - so I squeezed them back together, and when I switched on, one of the elements went with a bang.

So yes, adding one or more RCDs will vastly improve your personal safety.
It could be just one in your supply - but it's generally advised that you split the installation across at least two. Having multiple RCDs, each protecting part of the system, means that there is less leakage current so nuisance trips are less likely - but also means that if one does trip, you still have some circuits working.
At a pinch, using a plug in RCD will give some protection - but only to faults with whatever is plugged into it.

When picking an RCD, be aware that some (notably many of the ones built into RCBOs - that's a combination fo RCD and the overload function of your existing breakers) have a white or cream wire coming out that needs to be earthed. Avoid these, there are plenty of RCDs that don't have this.
Also avoid any time-delayed versions - these won't trip fast enough to stop you getting a fatal shock. They are used (simplification) where it's required to protect part of the wiring system (e.g. a sub main), while still providing discrimination with non-delayed RCDs downstream. Without the delay, a fault on any downstream circuit would trip both the RCD on that circuit and the one further upstream.

For safety, it would be a good idea to add earthing to all circuits - though I realise that's going to be impractical for some (particularly rented places), and an upheaval where it is practical.
But the principle of the majority of electrical system in residential settings (it can be different in a commercial/industrial setting with trained staff monitoring things) is that all exposed conductive parts are earthed - so that if there's a fault, the current that will then flow will blow a fuse or trip a beaker, thus disconnecting the supply.
There is also the idea of double insulated appliances where there is extra insulation so that a fault between the live supply and any exposed metalwork is made very unlikely - but you won't find washing machines built to that standard.

And of course, whatever you or the others on the forums decide to do, you'll need to find out what the local rules/regulations are. For example, in many areas, only licensed electricians are allowed to do any electrical work.
 
So in a curious moment I've just scan read the Cambodian electrical regs (something not actually so unusual for me given my global work scope). An interesting beast - seems to take bits here and there from other nations but doesn't really join the dots very well between them all. The MV transmission system and my interpretation of the LV installation system (230v, 50Hz) is that it's meant to be what we'd know as IT - there is a specific clause that implies everything should be insulated from Ground.

However, in another section which seems to have been lifted from BS7671 of a few years back it talks about making TT/TN systems.

What there IS, though, is this....

[ElectriciansForums.net] Will an RCD offer any protection in a building with NO earth circuit?
 
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Is that on the basis that I will be the earth?

Will an RCD give an early warning that an appliance is already dangerous, i.e. as soon as I plug it in via the RCD it keeps tripping the RCD?
If the appliance is not connected to earth then the RCD will not have any earth leakage current to detect, until your body provides a path when you touch it. So the RCD with no earth won’t trip.
 
If the appliance is not connected to earth then the RCD will not have any earth leakage current to detect, until your body provides a path when you touch it. So the RCD with no earth won’t trip.
This applies in many cases. If the faulty appliance is Class 1 but the earth connection has come adrift, then it may sit there at full mains potential until someone touches it, and the same applies to Class 2 equipment with eternal metal parts, where the double insulation has failed (or nigh impossible to comply with when installing, in the case of many imported light fittings).
If both sides of the supply are truly floating, then a fault of this kind shouldn't be dangerous, but capacitance, leakage and the possibility of an undetected existing fault elsewhere makes this something I wouldn't rely on. It won't matter that a 30mA RCD won't trip, as it will mean that the fault current flowing through your body is less than 30mA, so shouldn't be fatal, (usually).
 
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