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Discuss Will an RCD offer any protection in a building with NO earth circuit? in the UK Electrical Forum area at ElectriciansForums.net

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I live in Phnom Penh, Cambodia and people die here regularly by electrocution. There is no earth wiring in the buildings, just live and neutral.

I am a member of an expats forum and the question arises: Will using an RCD device offer any protection at all?
I understand RCD's will go off with any leakage and that may have to include the human being the earth. At the moment my apartment has 8/16/32 amp circuit breakers and nothing else.

I can buy plug-in type RCD units to go between an appliance (like the washing machine) and the wall socket. Will this offer any protection even it is me being the earth! 😱
 
Only if the unearthed appliance is in contact with the general mass of earth, which is by no means certain, since many appliances sit on rubber or plastic feet.


Not if it is not connected/isolated from earth. Live will touch the casing, have no where to go and not create an imbalance.

Ok.

But this is what I still don't get (apologies for my ignorance)---> your responses imply that the current is still flowing to Neutral? But how is that possible if the current has left the intended live-neutral loop?

Note: My logic / assumption is that if a Live wire touches a metal chassis, then that means it is no more connected to neutral. And if it’s not connected to neutral, then there’s no way for the current to flow back to neutral (hence my reasoning why the RCD will trip). What am I missing here?
 
Ok.

But this is what I still don't get (apologies for my ignorance)---> your responses imply that the current is still flowing to Neutral? But how is that possible if the current has left the intended live-neutral loop?

Note: My logic / assumption is that if a Live wire touches a metal chassis, then that means it is no more connected to neutral. And if it’s not connected to neutral, then there’s no way for the current to flow back to neutral (hence my reasoning why the RCD will trip). What am I missing here?

If the connection has broken inside the appliance and contacted the chassis instead, then with no neutral return path there will be no current and the appliance will not work. The casing will be live and if someone touching it completes a path to earth/neutral they will get a shock, but the RCD will not automatically trip.

This is one reason why if e.g. a light or heater doesn't start when you plug it in and turn on the power (assuming its own power switch is on) then it should be unplugged before being examined as a broken internal wire may be touching the casing.
 
I entered this thread because video below states that when a Live wire touches a metal frame there will be current leakage causing the RCD to trip. No earthing of the metal frame, no person touching the frame. RCD still trips.

This video seems to contradict the initial responses I received above, which states the RCD will trip when a ground fault happens but only if the metal frame is connected to earth.

Confused as ever....:(

starts at 3:00

 
There is a few ifs and buts here. If the frame is not earthed, say it is floating in the air and completely isolated then there is nowhere for any current to go and as such the RCD shouldn't sense an imbalance.
Another scenario, again the frame is not earthed by way of the electrical system but has a tenuous contact to earth. For instance a washing machine sitting on a damp floor which is likely to allow leakage to flow hence you get an imbalance.
 
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There is a few ifs and buts here. If the frame is not earthed, say it is floating in the air and completely isolated then there is nowhere for any current to go and as such the RCD shouldn't sense an imbalance.

You're pretty adamant there won't be any current leakage as the current travels through the body of the frame....not saying you're wrong, just interesting to hear different viewpoints.

Follow on question ---> so how does the current make its way back to neutral from the frame?
 
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If it has no possible return to earth no current will flow. If I touch a live wire to a metal spoon on a rubber mat there is nowhere for any current to go, this is the same scenario.
 
If it has no possible return to earth no current will flow.

Sorry, I wasn't being clear enough ---> I'm not talking about the current going back to neutral via earth. I'm saying how does the current that is now buzzing around the metal frame/body make its way back to the RCD?......because the point is if we say the metal frame is not earthed AND we say there is no imbalance in current, then that must mean the current is making its way back via the circuit's neutral wire....correct?
 
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You're pretty adamant there won't be any current leakage as the current travels through the body of the frame....not saying you're wrong, just interesting to hear different viewpoints.

Follow on question ---> so how does the current make its way back to neutral from the frame?
As mentioned before, the DNO supply transformer is expected to have a centre point Neutral which is then referenced to Earth at the Substation and in some cases along the route to the home/businesses. Any conducting surface like a toaster casing that has become live, if the toaster is earthed at the home, the current will either flow along the home earth to the DNO earth or Earth Rod and make its was back to the Substation to complete the cct. As this is a long path/highish resistance path it may not trip a breaker or blow a fuse but just sit there. Along comes a human , touches the case and creates a parallel cct through the human body to the floor or if touching an earthed component like a radiator or kitchen tap a highish current will flow through the human. If an RCD was in cct, it would see current down the live and not coming back to the neutral through the RCD as its been diverted through the human to a parallel path back to the substation, hence it can trip if the impedance is low enough.
 
Sorry, I wasn't being clear enough ---> I'm not talking about the current going back to neutral via earth. I'm saying how does the current that is now buzzing around the metal frame/body make its way back to the RCD?......because the point is if we say the metal frame is not earthed AND we say there is no imbalance in current, then that must mean the current is making its way back via the circuit's neutral wire....correct?
Perhaps you're confusing current and voltage. There will be a voltage at the metal frame, but in order for a current to flow anywhere there needs to be a complete circuit, either back through the neutral to the transformer, or back through the general mass of earth to the neutral point of the transformer.
Current does not 'buzz around', it is the flow of electricity in a conductive material. If there is no path for current to flow, there is no current.
 
I'm saying how does the current that is now buzzing around the metal frame/body make its way back to the RCD?
What "current buzzing around the frame" ?
Are you familiar with Kirchoff's 1st (or Current) Law ? Put simply, all the current going into/out of the device (via whatever routes) must sum to zero. If there is no path to ether from the frame (lets say it's sat on a perfectly insulating surface and has no earth connection) then there can be no flow of current between frame and earth. If the live supply wire comes free from it's terminal and touches the frame then two things happen :
1) The supply current will stop. There's no longer a path from live to neutral via the device load, and no path to earth from the frame, therefore when you apply Kirchoff's law, there can be no current in the live. No current in the neutral, no current in the live, therefore no current imbalance and the RCD will not trip.
2) The frame will become live. Simply, there's no a connection from the live supply to the frame, so the frame will be sat there at mains live voltage.
......because the point is if we say the metal frame is not earthed AND we say there is no imbalance in current (meaning the RCD won't trip), then that must mean the current is making its way back via the circuit's neutral wire....correct?
No, as above, there will be no supply current - it has nowhere to go to.
Remember, the supply does not "push current" through the loads, it forces a voltage onto the loads, the current is drawn according to the supply voltage and load characteristics. That's a common misunderstanding - people thing that you cannot use (say) a 2 amp power supply to for a device that only draws (say) 1/2 amp, they believe that somehow the 2A supplyt will force 4 times the current through the device and fry it. Assuming the voltage is the same, the device will simply draw it's normal 1/4A from the supply.

Now, there can be a discussion as to whether a large device sat on an insulating mat really will pass zero current to earth. In practice, the frame, mat, and floor/ground will form a small capacitance which in the presence of an AC voltage will pass a very small current. But for this discussion that current will be small enough to ignore.
 
Hi Westward,

I needed to come back to this post because things are slowly starting to click in my head (thank you to all you have been considerate to educate and reply so far, I really appreciate it).

There is a few its and buts here. If the frame is not earthed, say it is floating in the air and completely isolated then there is nowhere for any current to go and as such the RCD shouldn't sense an imbalance.

Another scenario, again the frame is not earthed by way of the electrical system but has a tenuous contact to earth. For instance a washing machine sitting on a damp floor which is likely to allow leakage to flow hence you get an imbalance.

I now see why you said there's a few IFs and BUTs in that video.

Current Leakage

For example, in the video example already provided (i.e. live wire touching metal frame, no earthing), it states the following (around the 3:00 mark):

'When the current will flow through the RCCB and then through the load, there will be leakage current in the body, but as there is a difference between the phase current and neutral current, the RCCB will trip"

I incorrectly interpreted this to mean there is current being lost by simple virtue of it flowing through a metal frame (yes dumb I know). I now understand that to mean that current is literally 'leaking' to the earth (thanks to your 2nd scenario above).


No Imbalance

I also think I now understand why you've been saying why there's no imbalance, esp. given the reply from @Simon47 below.
If the live supply wire comes free from it's terminal and touches the frame then two things happen :
1) The supply current will stop. There's no longer a path from live to neutral via the device load, and no path to earth from the frame, therefore when you apply Kirchoff's law, there can be no current in the live. No current in the neutral, no current in the live, therefore no current imbalance and the RCD will not trip.


However, this contradicts the video which states that when a Live wire touches a metal frame, the current can still flow back to the RCD, causing it to trip. I get the video is making an example, but is this a plausible real-world scenario?

The scenario would be:
  • Frame is not earthed
  • Live touches metal frame
  • Current flows through metal frame
  • Current flows from metal frame to neutral
  • RCD doesn't trip as there is a complete circuit and no loss of current

Can this situation exist in the real world (@westward10 / @Simon47)?

Cheers


 
If the load is still intact, and there is a L-E (frame) fault, then it helps to separate the current flows which we'll assume for now are independent.
1) The normal load current. For this, the currents in L&N will balance and not trip the RCD.
2) The current due to the fault. This flows from whatever has contacted the frame (we'll assume the L supply) and down to the protective earth connection. The size of this depends on the circuit impedance. If the frame is perfectly isolated from ground, nothing will flow. If it's well connected then a large current will flow and the supply over-current protection (fuse or circuit breaker) will blow/trip. In between these two extremes, some current will flow and if it's large enough then either the RCD or overcurrent protection (or both) will trip.
In a properly wired UK system, any fault current will NOT flow back through the neutral connection - it's expressly forbidden to have the circuit neutral share a connection with the earth connection (at least, once past the supplier's service head and you'll find some threads here and over in the DIY-Not forums about "lost PEN" faults (loss of the protective earth and neutral, PEN, conductor) on the supplier side. Since the earth connection does not go through the imbalance sensing coil of the RCD, any current flowing in the circuit's earth conductor will not balance that in the live conductor and (if large enough) will trip the RCD.

Now, you are not in the UK, and i gather some countries have what we might describe as "interesting" ideas regarding electrical safety. As you have no earth wiring, it sounds like Cambodia is one of them. If exposed conductive parts are "earthed" by connecting them to the supply neutral (which we'll assume is earthed, making it a TN-C system) then things do get more interesting.

If it's as simple as having a 2-pin plug & socket, and the appliance case is connected to neutral, then a L-case (frame) fault will not trip an RCD - there will be a current from L, through the case, and back out of the neutral wire. Since (again, apply Kirchoff's current law) "what goes in must come out", L & N currents will still balance and the RCD will not trip - depending on the nature of the fault, the overcurrent protection may trip, or the case may become live to some extent. Only if someone touches the case while also touching something "earthy" will a current to earth flow - and that should trip the RCD. On that basis, having an RCD will be safer than not having one as long as you don't then lower your guard because you consciously or subconsciously think "it's safe now I've got an RCD".
Possibly the worst case fault in this situation would be a broken neutral somewhere together with another fault. That could make the case of every appliance go live even when they are switched off ! That's the situation I mentioned above about loss of the PEN on the supplier's side - there's scope for the "earth" connection in a property to become live, not normally a problem inside as we have equipotential bonding, but a problem once we export that equipotential zone outside (such as to a metal tap or an EV on charge).


As to whether you can usefully do much about it, that depends on local custom, local regulations, and your personal situation. For example, if you are in a position to create your own earth electrode (a.k.a. earth rod), then you could potentially convert to a TT system in which case you would need RCDs to provide safety, but they would probably protect better than you have now.
Try this page which will probably help, or this page.
 
However, this contradicts the video which states that when a Live wire touches a metal frame, the current can still flow back to the RCD, causing it to trip. I get the video is making an example, but is this a plausible real-world scenario?

The scenario would be:
  • Frame is not earthed
  • Live touches metal frame
  • Current flows through metal frame
  • Current flows from metal frame to neutral
  • RCD doesn't trip as there is a complete circuit and no loss of current

Can this situation exist in the real world (@westward10 / @Simon47)?

Cheers
If frame is not earthed, and live touches metal frame, current will be present on metal frame and RCD will not trip. If Neutral is connected to metal frame, RCD will not trip but this is a short circuit condition and then the breaker will trip.

If neutral has been connected to frame as the device has been in use, and the electrical service to the premises is neutral grounded to earth, and the utility, then the RCD would trip whenever a person came in contact with the frame and earth, creating an alternate return path to neutral at the premises utility and/or system grounds as long as the milli-amp leakage is enough.
 
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If frame is not earthed, and live touches metal frame, current will be present on metal frame and ...
VOLTAGE will be present, current may or may not flow depending on whether a circuit is formed. Let's not keep confusing matters by using wrong terminology. This is wrong (voltage and current are different things), not just a matter of a difference in opinion on terminology (e.g. "plug top" vs. "plug", or "transformer" for what is generally these days a switch mode supply).
 
VOLTAGE will be present, current may or may not flow depending on whether a circuit is formed. Let's not keep confusing matters by using wrong terminology. This is wrong (voltage and current are different things), not just a matter of a difference in opinion on terminology (e.g. "plug top" vs. "plug", or "transformer" for what is generally these days a switch mode supply).
In the scenario I was responding to (see post above mine) poster says live touches frame, frame is not earthed, current flows through neutral. Poster was describing a dead short.
 

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