Wits end

[DurhamSparky]

The labelling of mcb's does not negate the requirement to provide a circuit Schedule for the board.

all info is included in the EIC given to the customer! and surprisingly if such a requirement exists why was it never brought up at my site assessment?

 

[SirKit Breaker]

Simon,

Sorry mate but if you submit that job for your Elecsa assessment without carrying out some urgent remedial work you are going to get a rough ride, a really rough ride. They are very keen on the correct IP ratings for CU's and of course it must be properly secure. I know you say it has come off the wall since you did the work, and I dont know you or what your normal standard of work is like. But if I were to give my humble opinion of that example i would say it looks very amateur, and DIY standard. I am just trying to give you the benefit of my experience with Elecsa assessments, I have had 5. Minor misdemeanours will be dealt with by you being given advice from the assessor, but submit anything sloppy, be it work example, poorly completed certs etc and you will get crucified, and your £475 is down the bog. Dont get me wrong, they are working electricians just like us, and want to help, but as with anything first impressions count.

My last assessment was last week, and in general conversation he was telling me that due to the downturn Elecsa are getting a large amount of new applicants, and a lot of them are being referred due to their lack of experience and knowledge. i dont know what your experience etc is, but if you are not 100% ready to be assessed than save your money. I have no wish to offend you or your ability, but you will need to do better to get through.

Good luck,

Howard

 

[Amp David]

I've never understood why you need to put a schedule alongside the CU especially on domestic.

Customer has the cert and all info is on that. Plus when the next guy comes along does some work and doesn't bother adding a new schedule or amend yours then whats the point?

 

[professional]

Many assessors are USELESS, having little EXPERIENCE and even less training. Forget the rubbish that assessors tell you - use COMMON SENSE!

The regs require a circuit schedule to be FIXED on, adjacent (or as near as practicable) to the consumer unit. The fact that the EIC has been handed to the customer does not stop them losing it or taking ages to find it when requested by another spark at a later date.

ALL consumer units should have a drop down flap almost as big as the board itself - this would enable a proper circuit schedule to be inserted in a clear pocket. A pre-printed card and a self-adhesive pocket would probably add 10p to the price of the board.

If YOU were called out to a job, you`d think it wonderful if circuit information was presented to you as soon as you dropped the cover flap on the consumer unit.

 

[professional]

I've never understood why you need to put a schedule alongside the CU especially on domestic.

Customer has the cert and all info is on that. Plus when the next guy comes along does some work and doesn't bother adding a new schedule or amend yours then whats the point?

The fact that a person carrying out work after you have left may be untrained, unqualified and inexperienced (i.e. possibly 50% of Competent Person Scheme membership) does NOT justify YOU not bothering.


I fully appreciate the frustration felt by many at the moment - why bother training when all that you appear to need is a cheque and knowledge possessed by many family pets?

As a side issue - is anyone else aware that the Schemes have accepted that minimum Scheme entry requirements are to be a LEVEL 3 QUALIFICATION IN INSTALLATION? Where it will get really interesting is when real sparks start complaining about the legions of Registered, unqualified "sparks" taking work off them yet they don't have a chance in hell of complying with the new entry requirements, especially as the C&G 2357 requires ON-SITE assessment of WORK THAT YOU HAVE DONE, with proof that the work is yours!

All it will take is one five day wonder to get someone seriously hurt and for Health and Safety to point out that allowing untrained, inexperienced individuals to carry out work does NOT comply with the Electricity at Work Regulations ..........

Oh dear, oh dear, oh dear ..........

 

[malcolmsanford]

Are you saying that this could be the end of the 5 week get qualified quick DI courses. Isn't the DI course a level 3 course ?

 

[professional]

The Schemes have allowed assessment of work without proof that it was carried out by the individual undergoing assessment. I know of many cases where a bloke has got his mate to do the work, fill in the cert(s) and just signed them before the assessor turned up.

This practice is widespread amongst those undergoing both initial AND ongoing assessment.


The question is - how can the Schemes justify letting totally incompetent people carry on installing without any MEANINGFUL assessment of their abilities to both install and test/inspect.

The Schemes have colluded in by-passing the requirements of the Electricity at Work Regulations (i.e. the requirement for knowledge and experience) by abusing the assessment process. The Department for Communities and Local Government (DC&LG - the old ODPM) have already accused the Schemes of abuse of Scheme entry requirements ...........


Is it really fair on the public that individuals should (without the knowledge of the public) be allowed to learn the absolute basics in dwellings whilst unsupervised?

If the Schemes are so confident in the abilities of their untrained, unqualified and inexperienced members, why are they so afraid of the public finding out?

If the untrained, unqualified and inexperienced Scheme members are so confident in their own abilities, why are THEY so afraid of the public finding out?


The problems caused by said individuals is now SO bad that the Schemes go to great lengths to suppress the evidence - even to the point of refusing to investigate complaints of incompetence ........... and prefer to categorise complaints as "commercial issues" between members and their customers.

 

[malcolmsanford]

That is very interesting though how exactly a scheme is going to police who actually did the work will be interesting.

The testing, inspection and certification filling should be fairly straight forward for an assessor to prove. No matter who actually installed the installation the assessor can ask for proof on competancy by insisting that certain tests be carried out and be there while the person does it. Also he can ask for "dummy" certification to be completed as well, which later can be taken and destroyed.

As someone who as been through the assessed procedure for many years I'm sure the majority of assessors can tell within minutes if someone is competant, the same as many electricians can gauge who is a "good" or "bad" tradesman.

Funnily enough I posted here earlier how I worry where the industry is going. The Part P legislation is franky a joke, and the massive influx of poorly trained "electricians" is a real concern.

I hope that something is done, and the industry is handed back to people who will keep it in safe hands.

 

[professional]

The Part P "industry" has little to do with safe electrical installations in dwellings - more to do with producing meaningless paperwork.

An individual licensing system is the way to go - but that would mean that individuals would actually need to know what they are doing rather than the confidence trick that is being foisted onto the public ......... and the dangerous QS systems that save money at the expense of safety in dwellings would have to go ........

 

[malcolmsanford]

Your not my long lost twin brother are you by any chance

I'm in total agreement with licencing for us. I think that the UK must be about the only developed country that electricians are not licenced as individuals. I'm all for a gas safe type registration. My wife who is a Register General nurse is the one that is registered, not the organisation she works for it's her, and this should be the same as us.

Part P was a political knee jerk reaction to an incident that involved a politicians relative, and as such is a completely useless piece of legislation that as no recourse. I would love to know the statistics for any prosecution of non compliance of the act .............I personally know of none.

Why the government never went down the licencing route at the time to me is a mystery. Though not a labour basher as such I think it was excuse to create thousands of non jobs again, within the schemes.

The body was already set up in the JIB and they could administer a registration of every electrician in the country. I know that the JIB themselves as short comings but they could have over come them and be a proper force within the industry instead of an health and safety only body.

honestly rant over

 

[professional]

That is very interesting though how exactly a scheme is going to police who actually did the work will be interesting.

The testing, inspection and certification filling should be fairly straight forward for an assessor to prove. No matter who actually installed the installation the assessor can ask for proof on competancy by insisting that certain tests be carried out and be there while the person does it. Also he can ask for "dummy" certification to be completed as well, which later can be taken and destroyed.

As someone who as been through the assessed procedure for many years I'm sure the majority of assessors can tell within minutes if someone is competant, the same as many electricians can gauge who is a "good" or "bad" tradesman.

Funnily enough I posted here earlier how I worry where the industry is going. The Part P legislation is franky a joke, and the massive influx of poorly trained "electricians" is a real concern.

I hope that something is done, and the industry is handed back to people who will keep it in safe hands.

There is massive pressure on the assessors to allow people onto the register - that way, the Schemes have first dabs at the revenue from the training that these people never got in the first place .......

A licensing system will ONLY work if it is independent - the JIB is NOT.

"The JIB is the collective term for the partnership between the ECA and Unite" -
http://www.jib.org.uk/about.htm"

 

[armbands0]

Probably a bit late now but for you future reference you can get a product made by rawl plug called something like, fix and forget.

It's a kind of putty and once you mix it together you can put it into or behind a hole then redrill after it has set. It is fast setting.

Good luck with the assessment.

 

[SimpleSimon]

Sorry gents.
Forgot to reply back. Void sorted with some ply as suggested. All fine and passed my Elecsa assessment.

 

[pushrod]

Is that just chipboard?

 

[kilty55]

yes chipyboard