Would you accept a Ze of 199Ω on a TT Installation which also has an RCD.

[Geordie Spark]

don't really think it's an issue though, not heard of any petrol stations blowing up in the UK.

Don't start giving these ISIS Jihad types any ideas for fooks sake!!!

 

[Geordie Spark]

Re: Would you accept a Ze of 200Ω on a TT Installation which also has an RCD.

Do you mean Ra

I was wondering about that but didn't like to mention it - me being "just" a plumber an' all ........ :laugh::angel_smile:

 

[Jonspark]

Don't start giving these ISIS Jihad types any ideas for fooks sake!!!

As silly as it sounds it has been taken in to account. Many chemical plants and gas facilites do have a police presence, as is in the Grimsby area.

 

[DPG]

Doesn't really matter if actually using the phone or not - if it's switched on in your pocket then it's still polling the nearest bases station and gauging signal strength/tx power etc. And like people have said above, how many explosions has it caused. In fact, I think it was Brainiacs or Mythbusters which tested this theory out by ringing a load of mobile phones in a gas filled caravan. Must have been Brainiacs thinking about it! Daz

 

[DPG]

As silly as it sounds it has been taken in to account. Many chemical plants and gas facilites do have a police presence, as is in the Grimsby area.

The east Yorkshire coast one near Holmpton/Withernsea has armed police patrols in the area. Can't remember the name of it. Daz

 

[Jonspark]

Yeah went past there other week on way to Patrington caravan park

 

[DPG]

Nice area around there. Nice bit of military history at Kilnsea and Spurn point. Daz

 

[baldsparkies]

Don't start giving these ISIS Jihad types any ideas for fooks sake!!!

Remember when working at a nuclear power station just after 911.
Security was tighter than the proverbial ducks bottom.
We needed to change a supply source during a re furb.
UPS system for comms was signed off as being healthy, and we were give permission to shut down, lock off and transfer.
We were there as a contractor, and the in house maintenance sparks were also present.
All good to go says the in house sparky's with a thumbs up.
No problem bud, says I.
As soon as you throw the switch we will start the transfer.
Oh !! right ok he says.
Ker clunk,
Should of had a full half hour, system went down in less than five minutes.
Now back then if comms go down, all hell breaks loose.
The UPS service engineers were for the high jump, and when they asked who had isolated the supply I was able to say "I know nothing senor"
Moral of the story.
Don't be the scape goat for somebody else's responsibility.:ack2:

 

[Jonspark]

Quite like spurn point but it's a bloody long walk now.

 

[DPG]

Have they not rebuilt the road yet from last year?

 

[Jonspark]

do you can only drive as far as the twitchers hut, then its a long walk to the end

 

[DPG]

Cheers. Do you think I would get down on my Armstrong? (off-road bike, road legal though)

 

[Jonspark]

Cheers. Do you think I would get down on my Armstrong? (off-road bike, road legal though)

should do, although it can be quite sandy in places

 

[Jonspark]

on the other hand i think all motor vehicles might be prohibited

 

[DPG]

Been down before on the bike - it's OK, it does sand ! I guess they might be stopping all vehicles. I'll check before I go next. Cheers, Daz

 

[Deleted member 9648]

Re: Would you accept a Ze of 200Ω on a TT Installation which also has an RCD.

That's what happens when the old bugger doesn't put his glasses on.
Many thanks for correcting me kind sir.
Just wish they could come up with some decisive information or even come to a reliable conclusion as to what makes a max value stable and then at what point its not.
I have corrected TT system readings above 400 ohms.
And yet the 30ma rcd's protecting those circuits have, under test, operated within 40ms/200ms no problems.
If un-stability is a science it needs practical clarification so that we have a definitive cut off value that all adhere to with no grey areas.
In the mean time I will continue to go with 100 ohms purely because logic dictates its a safer bet than 200 ohms.
No other reason, and if someone proved conclusively that below 200 is still a safe option then so be it.

Thats got to be one of the most illogical statements I've ever seen on this forum. You might as well go with 1000 because it's safer than 1667!

 

[D Skelton]

Re: Would you accept a Ze of 200Ω on a TT Installation which also has an RCD.

Thats got to be one of the most illogical statements I've ever seen on this forum. You might as well go with 1000 because it's safer than 1667!

Like saying "I'll only drive at 190mph on the autobahn because it's safer than 200mph" lol!

And.. 'three'.. 'two'.. 'one'... Eng is back in the room!

 

[7029 dave]

Why do people get so twitchy with TT? first you have to understand the system it an earth to earth system, with an good rod or earth matt, the biggest earth conductor(yes 16mm) I have achieved 2 figures.

 

[richy3333]

Re: Would you accept a Ze of 200Ω on a TT Installation which also has an RCD.

Does everything need to be a poll?

We'll be having designs put to a poll soon!

We should have a poll to find out the answer

 

[baldsparkies]

Re: Would you accept a Ze of 200Ω on a TT Installation which also has an RCD.

Thats got to be one of the most illogical statements I've ever seen on this forum. You might as well go with 1000 because it's safer than 1667!

"In the mean time I will continue to go with 100 ohms purely because logic dictates its a safer bet than 200 ohms".

In context with the rest of the quote it seems logical to me !!
Where a TT system is used I will always attempt to get sub 100 ohm readings as opposed to 200 ohms because its a safer bet.
Is not the whole point to reduce the resistance of the earth return path to a point where stability issues are minimised.
Technically we can often go much higher than that, but I prefer not to always rely on what's technically correct.
Otherwise we can bring into play your own analogy of 1667 or even 1000 which I agree would lack logic, but on paper !!
BS 7671 are looking at values below 200 ohms.
NICEIC have quoted below 100 ohms, as does BS 7430.

Actually BS 7430 is a very interesting read so here's a link,

http://jack.nazwa.pl/doc/UK.17th/BS/BS 7430 Earthing.pdf

With reference to Skelts 200 mph vs 190 mph,
If its a Ferrari, with decent brakes, on a traffic free autobahn !!

GO FOR IT unk:

 

[Deleted member 9648]

Re: Would you accept a Ze of 200Ω on a TT Installation which also has an RCD.

"In the mean time I will continue to go with 100 ohms purely because logic dictates its a safer bet than 200 ohms".

In context with the rest of the quote it seems logical to me !!
Where a TT system is used I will always attempt to get sub 100 ohm readings as opposed to 200 ohms because its a safer bet.
Is not the whole point to reduce the resistance of the earth return path to a point where stability issues are minimised.
Technically we can often go much higher than that, but I prefer not to always rely on what's technically correct.
Otherwise we can bring into play your own analogy of 1667 or even 1000 which I agree would lack logic, but on paper !!
BS 7671 are looking at values below 200 ohms.
NICEIC have quoted below 100 ohms, as does BS 7430.

Actually BS 7430 is a very interesting read so here's a link,

http://jack.nazwa.pl/doc/UK.17th/BS/BS 7430 Earthing.pdf

With reference to Skelts 200 mph vs 190 mph,
If its a Ferrari, with decent brakes, on a traffic free autobahn !!

GO FOR IT unk:

Wasn't having a go mate,the whole Ra value thing is a lottery. As I've argued before,i just cant get my head around a view that pitches ANY high Ra value as 'better' than any other high Ra value.The end result will be the same whether it's 20 ohms or 1000 ohms. Tn values or you may as well go twiggy IMO lol.
You there Eng?

 

[D Skelton]

Another thing worth pointing out is that stability has absolutely nothing to do with ohmic values. A 10 ohm Ra only suggests that the rod is more stable than one with a 100 ohm Ra. Depth is the key to stability, and I've had rods with Ra values far higher than 200 ohms that are infinitely more stable than any low Ra value obtained from the use of a four foot twig!

 

[baldsparkies]

Re: Would you accept a Ze of 200Ω on a TT Installation which also has an RCD.

Wasn't having a go mate,the whole Ra value thing is a lottery. As I've argued before,i just cant get my head around a view that pitches ANY high Ra value as 'better' than any other high Ra value.The end result will be the same whether it's 20 ohms or 1000 ohms. Tn values or you may as well go twiggy IMO lol.
You there Eng?

I totally see your point, and in agreement with all you and Skelts have said.
In fact Skelts has put the point very well in his last post.
The integrity and methods employed to achieve stability are not disputed, nor should they be.
Its the way I tell em !! (sorry)
Problem is when dealing with "as you say a lottery" You have to start somewhere, and this thread asks the question sub 200 vs sub 100.
I simply have never liked the thought of walking away from a TT system with a value over 100 ohms.
With petrol filling stations employing TT, the mass of steel and tanks would often give lower values than rods, once bondings were connected.
lower ohmic values in most cases will give an indication of stability.
And its that alongside installation methods, materials used, soil conditions within seasonal changes and type that help to take the lottery equation out of things.
As said I don't think we are disagreeing here, just putting viewpoints over from a different perspective.

Still fancy the 200 mph Ferrari though.

 

[GEOFF S]

Its quite simple, if the soil is a poor then a 200 ohm reading may be considered stable, if you have good soil then you would consider it to be unstable.

Now unless your going to survey the ground resistance, your hitting and hoping. If this is the case use good methods and remember the first meter is open to seasonal variation so drive deep if you can.

Cheers

 

[baldsparkies]

Its quite simple, if the soil is a poor then a 200 ohm reading may be considered stable, if you have good soil then you would consider it to be unstable.

Now unless your going to survey the ground resistance, your hitting and hoping. If this is the case use good methods and remember the first meter is open to seasonal variation so drive deep if you can.

Cheers

And don't forget your cat 4 :icon12:

 

[Deleted member 9648]

Despite appearances it's actually an awful long time since I used a twig,SOP these days is two coupled rods,perhaps a result of the discussions on this forum!....although TT's are an increasingly rare job. I recall using two coupled rods for a small fairground supply and barely hitting the fabled 200 ohm mark,but mostly in my area anywhere between 12 and 150 ohms is the expected result. Cant help wondering whether a twig would do the same job though!!!

 

[123]

I think the twigs are for gas installers to bond the gas line :38:

 

[Knobhead]

well in theory these do have the joule/watt energy to ignite some types of flammable vapours. And you don't want to be around when a 100M3 vessel goes up.This has happened in the past, a few been in the US, but there was one explosion in the north of England can't remember the sites name at the moment.
Flixborough in 74

The main cause of Flixborough was an incorrect repair on a pipe bridge. The wrong grade of steel pipe was used to try and keep the plant running. The pipe fractured due to the substance being carried.

 

[Jonspark]

The main cause of Flixborough was an incorrect repair on a pipe bridge. The wrong grade of steel pipe was used to try and keep the plant running. The pipe fractured due to the substance being carried.

A quick Google search will give you an in depth report and changes in management of change at hazardous area sites.

 

[Engineer54]

Despite appearances it's actually an awful long time since I used a twig,SOP these days is two coupled rods,perhaps a result of the discussions on this forum!....although TT's are an increasingly rare job. I recall using two coupled rods for a small fairground supply and barely hitting the fabled 200 ohm mark,but mostly in my area anywhere between 12 and 150 ohms is the expected result. Cant help wondering whether a twig would do the same job though!!!

Glad to hear it...lol!!

If the soil type is that bad, where you only managed to get a 200 ohms value from a coupled 2.4 m rodded electrode, then NO, a twig would not, and certainly wouldn't be stable. It's soil conditions such as this, where the use of soil conditioning and/or electrode enhancers should be considered.

As i've said many times here, there's a lot more to creating a rodded (or any other type of electrode) TT system than just bunging a rod or two in the ground and hoping for the best...

 

[baldsparkies]

Sorry for re posting the link but it does make a good read for those interested.

http://jack.nazwa.pl/doc/UK.17th/BS/BS 7430 Earthing.pdf