Yet another spark robbing customers!

[D Skelton]

Just got back from a customer who has asked me to quote for rectifying some issues brought to light during a recent inspection. The customer came to me because the previous spark had let him down and failed to turn up when supposed to on four different occasions.

Turns out this NIC 'approved' contractor had given the customer a PIR instead of EICR and made up a bunch of pony recommendations and codes in order to get more work. I'm slightly confused as to why he didn't follow through with his robbery as it seems it would have been easy money but essentially, the customer now knows he may as well have been given a blank piece of paper and I have now been tasked with providing yet another report for the customer, at more expense. At least this time it will be worth something!

Here's an example of some of the codes given:

- No RCD protection - Code 2? (not needed as install is pre 16th)
- No circuit charts - Code 2?
- Non working light - Code 1???????
- Old DB needs removing - Code 1? (Bearing in mind it was dead and not connected to anything)
- Three cracked sockets - Code 1 (made up)
- Exposed wires in light fitting - Code 1 (made up)

And after all of this, there was not a cross or a LIM in sight on the schedule of inspections?!?!? Surely if there are exposed live wires, the requirements for basic protection haven't been met at least?

Shame as this customer can't exchange his lease with the new buyer without the report which is being requested by the freeholder before he is prepared to sign the relevant paperwork.

I'm just ranting now because I hate robbing ba****ds and it just goes to show, yet again, that being an NIC 'approved' contractor, or for that matter an approved contractor with any of the other scam schemes isn't worth the paper it's written on!

I've got the details of the contractor. Name, address and phone number and have been given free reign to do as I please with those details as soon as I'm finished with the customer. Oh am I hoping to have some fun!!!

 

[Swicade]

'tis all abit confusing....

1) the trade is in a mess and no one in authority seems to want to do much about it.
2) Scam schemes just want the money so very unlikely to penalise one of thier members unless something fatal happens
3) as scam schemes wont clean up the trade (due to loosing money if they do) the only people left are the good/honest sparks to try and change things.
4) When a sparks (not just on this thread but in general) tries to make a stand they're advised not to as it's either:
a) a waste of time as scam schemes dont care
b) out of order grassing up a fellow tradesman.


So if scam schemes dont care, nameing/shameing is wrong, having a word is wrong and spreading the word is wrong...... How are things ever going to improve?

Not saying the OP is necessarily going about things the right way but someone's gotta stand up for the trade surely?

 

[Dave 85]

LABC or NICEIC will not want to know. I recently contacted both over a NIC registered sparky changing a con unit and only filling out an EIC for his new shower circuit. Blanks missing from board, numerous errors on form. (max demand listed 100amp, main switch listed as 60898
2 pole...)
LABC asked me what exactly I wante them to do as the guy was registered with NICEIC so must be competant, NIC replied with an email to say they can't do anything with my say so, they need the 80 year old granny customer to complain to him direct then give him a chance to return and do it properly. If he wouldn't they MAY step in but can't even guarantee a site visit.
I had may ELECSA assessment yesterday, the scam man is very interested and now has a copy of his certs, dunno what he's going to do with them but he said h had clout with ECA and the part p review board.

Not exactly crime of the century is it....he probably did a prefectly safe and compliant job just didn't fill out his cert properly. Why would either NICEIC or LABC waste time investigating somebody just because they fill out a cert wrong...who cares...
Out of interest...and this is a genuine question, what would you put in the max demand box? I always put 100amp and have never been pulled on it.

 

[Mark_Burgess]

Although I see what your intensions are and to some what I agree, I think that less is more in this case.

Don't issue a letter from yourself, write it up for your customer for them to sign (so you have done the hard work for them), with a copy of both his and your certs, asking why they are so different and that you the second electrician says its incorrect and advises that the NIC shall be informed etc, etc, blah blah and requesting a refund.

It could be ended off that you the second electrician is prepared to discuss the issues if he disagrees with your findings.

The other thing to consider is, if they the first electrician have not paid the NIC the extra to be assessed on PIR's, the NIC will not give a monkeys and NO action will be taken.

Ah sod it, ask him what the hell he playing at!! LOL

 

[Tonkatoy27]

Not exactly crime of the century is it....he probably did a prefectly safe and compliant job just didn't fill out his cert properly. Why would either NICEIC or LABC waste time investigating somebody just because they fill out a cert wrong...who cares...
Out of interest...and this is a genuine question, what would you put in the max demand box? I always put 100amp and have never been pulled on it.

No blanks in the front of the board? Live accessible parts? I'd think thats amongst one of the worst conditions you could leave a job in. I was also worried that the 9 or 10 errors evident on his test cert showed a certain lack of understanding of technical issues. Would you be happy employing a spark who didn't know the difference between a 60898 and a 60947-3?

Not to mention that if he only tests one circuit whilst changing a 10 way consumer unit he is going to finish the job a couple of hours quicker than someone who does the job properly. Therefore he is quite a lot cheaper than a good sparky and will get more work in the area because of this. So it follows that even more crappy work will be done by him and less work will be done by good electricians. We can't price jobs on a level playing field.
Oh, and it was a council grant job so you and me paid for it out of taxes...

It's never occurred to me to enter 100amps in the max demand box simply because it says 100amp on the fuse carrier because,
It's probably not a 100amp fuse in the carrier in my area and
Thats not the current max demand, thats the theoretical maximum current that could be pulled before the fuse blows. (although in reality it will be higher than the fuse rating)

I had a conversation with my ELECSA inspector about it yesterday and although he didn't condone the x0.4 rule of thumb he did allow that it was impractical to spend hours calculating it accurately.

What do you write when the carrier is unmarked? (mostly all unmarked in my area)
Surely if this was acceptable then they may as well have one combined box for max demand and supply overcurrent protective device?
Anyway, as far as the distributors are concerned, whatever the load, if the fuse hasn't blown the max demand is ok and they/you don't have to do anything. (recent enquiry from a hairdressers with 4x 8.5Kw showers on 100amp fuse)
It's interesting to know different takes on filling out certs correctly and if putting the main fuse rating is acceptable I'm all for it as it will speed jobs up.

 

[Dave 85]

No blanks in the front of the board? Live accessible parts? I'd think thats amongst one of the worst conditions you could leave a job in. I was also worried that the 9 or 10 errors evident on his test cert showed a certain lack of understanding of technical issues. Would you be happy employing a spark who didn't know the difference between a 60898 and a 60947-3?

Not to mention that if he only tests one circuit whilst changing a 10 way consumer unit he is going to finish the job a couple of hours quicker than someone who does the job properly. Therefore he is quite a lot cheaper than a good sparky and will get more work in the area because of this. So it follows that even more crappy work will be done by him and less work will be done by good electricians. We can't price jobs on a level playing field.
Oh, and it was a council grant job so you and me paid for it out of taxes...

It's never occurred to me to enter 100amps in the max demand box simply because it says 100amp on the fuse carrier because,
It's probably not a 100amp fuse in the carrier in my area and
Thats not the current max demand, thats the theoretical maximum current that could be pulled before the fuse blows. (although in reality it will be higher than the fuse rating)

I had a conversation with my ELECSA inspector about it yesterday and although he didn't condone the x0.4 rule of thumb he did allow that it was impractical to spend hours calculating it accurately.

What do you write when the carrier is unmarked? (mostly all unmarked in my area)
Surely if this was acceptable then they may as well have one combined box for max demand and supply overcurrent protective device?
Anyway, as far as the distributors are concerned, whatever the load, if the fuse hasn't blown the max demand is ok and they/you don't have to do anything. (recent enquiry from a hairdressers with 4x 8.5Kw showers on 100amp fuse)
It's interesting to know different takes on filling out certs correctly and if putting the main fuse rating is acceptable I'm all for it as it will speed jobs up.

Wasn't meaning to have a pop mate. You are dead right, no blanks is shoddy, I missed that bit.
What I was getting at was that I know some very good sparks who do not necessarily fill their test sheets out exactly right every time. Doesn't make em bad sparkies.

In all honesty I tend to turbo fill my own sheets due to the fact I do about 3 EIC a week and its always about quater to five when Im doing them. I've always put whatever is written on the fuse carrier as max demand. There have probably been occasions where I have recorded the main supply OCPD incorrectly put I dont lose any sleep over it.

I also tend to blast through the tick boxes without paying them much attention (on an EIC not an EICR). I dont need a bloody bit of paper to remind me to use cable that has insulation around the core or to not put a 1mm on a 40amp MCB.

 

[sparks1973]

No bathroom mate ....they maybe in need of one of these

but if the bottom is cracked/leaking...and there was a joint box hidden inder the floor just where said potty was sat?...hmm.....

 

[sparks1973]

blankety blank....blankety blank.....

 

[Tonkatoy27]

Wasn't meaning to have a pop mate. You are dead right, no blanks is shoddy, I missed that bit.
What I was getting at was that I know some very good sparks who do not necessarily fill their test sheets out exactly right every time. Doesn't make em bad sparkies.

In all honesty I tend to turbo fill my own sheets due to the fact I do about 3 EIC a week and its always about quater to five when Im doing them. I've always put whatever is written on the fuse carrier as max demand. There have probably been occasions where I have recorded the main supply OCPD incorrectly put I dont lose any sleep over it.

I also tend to blast through the tick boxes without paying them much attention (on an EIC not an EICR). I dont need a bloody bit of paper to remind me to use cable that has insulation around the core or to not put a 1mm on a 40amp MCB.

It was pretty obvious he didn't give a crap, description of work was 'shower'

 

[plugsandsparks]

FWIW, i simply do my tests point out deviations, explain in laymans language for the customer what it means, supply a quote, fix it and move on.
I would not dream of spending any braincell activity over another sparkies work or views, lifes too short and i am not perfect either.
Thats after a full day of remedials on an installation a NIC sparkie did. Its par for the course.

 

[i=p/u]

just be happy you get remedials ..... enjoy spending the money////

i was in wholesalers today and guy asked me was i busy , i said aye steady enough, 2 houses waiting on roofs to go on in his street and other bits and pieces, he goes thats my area how you get that.. i said £6ph for joke he was rippon, wholesaler guys laughing what a numpty humpty.... rip humpty dumty

 

[sparkyork]

i wouldnt get involved in anyway with this other spark and his own interpretation of the regs, especially for a £150 job, its nothing to do with you and if you confront this chap he will say the same.
if the scheme providers arnt interested or the customer aint interested in pursuing then niether should you be
i dont doubt for a moment that over the years i have probably made the odd mistake on a cert, were only human, and codes for pir/s can be a grey area.
were talking about £150 for gods sake, not £15,000!

if you came to my house and confronted me over some inaccurate pir codes (off day or whatever, you dont know the full story), i would kick your arse and i hope that if you do see this chap i hope he does!

you aint the police, bounty hunter, vigilante.

or at best he'll just swear at you and close the door.

dont even waste your time, just concentrate and doing your own jobs to your own standards and hope that no one ever knocks on your door.

peace out

 

[D Skelton]

Seems no one's got any get up and go these days! You're telling me you'd try kicking my arse for pointing out your shoddy work? If I carried out cack work and got called out on it I'd be ashamed, I certainly wouldn't be kicking anyones arse, and if I did, well, just shows what a mug I'd be and I'd deserve the jail time I got for it!

If by dropping a letter round some geezers house two roads down is going to provoke him into kicking off about it then at least his hospital stay will keep him from robbing people for a few weeks.

Like I said, the country is in a mess, and so is our profession, and if dropping a letter round someones house stands even the slightest change of changing something then I'll do it, coz no one else is gonna do anything about it. And even if it changes nothing, at least I can hold my head up high knowing that I've tried! We all moan about the problems in this industry, but how many of us are actually prepared to do something about it???

The way I see it, if you aren't prepared to at least try and find a solution, then you're part of the problem.

 

[sparkyork]

i agree mate there is a problem with the trade and the public who go to b n q and carry on with there own electrical work, but you said you hand deliver it in person. which i pressumed meant giving it to him in person which is gonna possibly cause a confrontation.

youre right in what you say and all i would do is post it through his letter box and leave.

going face to face with this chap is gonna be interesting if you know what i mean lol

didnt mean to sound dodgy mate but you dont know the full strory, a few errors here and there that may be down to all sorts of reasons.

end of the day its people like us that want to do a good job and not rip people off that will always have work on (hopefully) and people like this bloke are gonnna get a bad name in the long run, bad news travels fast.

good luck with what you do

rich

 

[RISElectrical]

- No RCD protection - Code 2? (not needed as install is pre 16th)
​

If there is a socket that in theory could be used to supply outside items or if no sup bonding maybe he was justified

- No circuit charts - Code 2?
​

This isnt a C2

- Non working light - Code 1???????
​

I was once advised (by an NIC assessor) that a non working light could be put as a C1 on the basis that if it isn't a lamp then it could give rise to an immediate problem somewhere on the circuit.

- Old DB needs removing - Code 1? (Bearing in mind it was dead and not connected to anything)
​

No explanation.

- Three cracked sockets - Code 1 (made up)
​

Did you check each and every socket (he could have meant back boxes, the reverse side, the termination parts.

- Exposed wires in light fitting - Code 1 (made up)
Are you sure you didn't miss which light he was talking about?

Got to be careful on pulling others work tbh. By all means tell the customer but for the things listed personally i wouldnt go any further and just be happy that in future you will probably get the work.

You say you want him to refund the £150 for the PIR (which if he is NIC then up to june i believe a PIR was fine) but are his tests ok? Did you take any readings to verify his results.

I think a lot of the time its the form filling that makes electricians look bad. You can know all the info but if it isnt recorded or understood how to record it then this is where problems tend to lie.

Also although he pulled these things he never actually went back to do them so hasn't robbed exactly. All he has done is charge £150 and for all you know spent a full day there checking things. (Did you inspect every socket for cracks and every light fitting for exposed wires.

I am not having a go but i wouldn't be jumping to conclusions either until i knew all sides of the story, and i would certainly be a little annoyed if another electrician turned up at my door to talk to me about something that in all fairness is nothing to do with him. Any contractual agreement is between this spark and the customer. I really wouldn't be getting involved.

​

 

[sparks1973]

i agree mate there is a problem with the trade and the public who go to b n q and carry on with there own electrical work, but you said you hand deliver it in person. which i pressumed meant giving it to him in person which is gonna possibly cause a confrontation.

youre right in what you say and all i would do is post it through his letter box and leave.

going face to face with this chap is gonna be interesting if you know what i mean lol

didnt mean to sound dodgy mate but you dont know the full strory, a few errors here and there that may be down to all sorts of reasons.

end of the day its people like us that want to do a good job and not rip people off that will always have work on (hopefully) and people like this bloke are gonnna get a bad name in the long run, bad news travels fast.

good luck with what you do

rich

if they want to go to orange shed and get stuff...let em.....then when it all goes ---- up....we get called to sort it out for em.....its up to folk what they buy...their paying for it....