Electra Vitoria VVVF Lift Motor Help Sought

[Eschatonic]

Hello and thankyou in advance for reading this thread.

I have a problem which is completely beyond my experience but if I don't try to help a lot of elderly people are going to go through hell.

There is a 5 storey building of retirement flats in Ramsgate built by McCarthy and Stone in 2004, It was equiped with a single, cheap and cheerful, lift from Orona of Spain.

The lift is currently maintained by Otis who are contracted to Housing 21 who manage the building.

The lift fails on a weekly basis but no body is prepared to say why other than it seems to be a heat related problem in the plant room. This has been going on for 5 months.

I have just been to a meeting held by Housing 21 who are talking about a £60,000 refit program that will take the lift out of service for 8 weeks.

An 'independent' lift consultant has been paid to do a VISUAL inspection of the lift. Hardly surprisingly they didn't come to any conclusion other than the lift was underated for the job it has to do. ( at 90 starts per hour).

Does anyone have any experience of diagnosing problems with Electra Vitoria VVVF motor and control sets?

The point here is that the lift worked OK for 5 years and now it fails more and more. I believe that we are being railroaded into a hugely expensive and drastically inconvenient refurb because that's what is easiest for the suits who don't live there or have to pick up the tab.

How long would it take to do a like for like swap on the motor and control box - it's only a 450kg lift.

If anyone has any suggestions on how I can shed light on the true issues please reply.

All the Best

 

[Knobhead]

Are you a qualified lift engineer?

It’s most likely to be systematic negligence on behalf of the maintenance contractors. Not uncommon in lifts and cranes. “That doesn’t look good, but it’s OK for now”. Only one place I worked had out side service contracts for the lifts and they were bloody useless. I had to rescue a service engineer after he’d got himself stuck in the lift he’d just repaired!

Unless you’re trained for it you can’t do much about it. Sorry but you’re hogtied.

I am trained in lift rescue and maintenance procedures. (Ottis and Wadsworth)

 

[netblindpaul]

Is there a CDM file i.e. did the building come under CDM?
Is your employer the company who commissioned the building?
If so get the lawyers on to it and sue the pants of both companies for negligence and get them to sort it in a week FOC and provide compensation and an alternative method of transport in the mean time.

 

[Eschatonic]

Thanks. No I'm not a lift engineer but I need to gain insight into how to approach the problem because after 5 months it is still a mystery.

I believe that we are employing the wrong people (Otis) to maintain/repair this (Orona) lift.

This is just a ridiculous situation that has occurred because the people in charge have no engineering experience. I am an electronics engineer by the way but in the land of the blind . . . .

 

[Knobhead]

Ottis service many different makes and types. They also own quire a few.

 

[Engineer54]

From the first instance of this lift breaking down on a more than acceptable regular basis, what did the service companies (Otis) customers report records state as reason of failure, and the remedial repairs afforded to the installation?? What would NOT be acceptable to myself, as an ongoing remedial action, ...is ''re-set'' protection modules!! That is not in any way conducting a maintenance service, that's just a quick repair. They are being paid a fee, to find out ''Why'' the protection module(s) are tripping and rectify. Even if the reason/cause exceeds the cost of their contract limit of replacement parts etc, at least the management company can then give the clearance for the replacement parts etc to be purchased and installed...

By the way, that visual inspection would tell you little to nothing unless something was literary hanging off. They are pretty useless as a PIR replacement, let alone a lift installation. VVVF motor controllers motors will need testing to indicate any underlying problems, not just looked at. 90 starts an hour is quite high for a residential type building, ...how many apartments are there over the 5 floors??

I see that the plant room has a supposed heat problem has anyone made attempts to alleviate this problem by means of forced ventilation by fans etc??

 

[Knobhead]

Out of interest do you have an annual insurance inspection on the lift? The ones we used were as keen as mustard. During one inspection we got pulled up twice for non-standard items being used and once for an alteration to the design specification. We were read the riot act! The design alteration we got approval for eventually, the other things had to be put back as was.

Try and get the insurance inspector on side.

I was glad about the design alteration, it was my idea

 

[Eschatonic]

There are no Otis records on site.
I have been told by Housing 21 that their inspection/repair reports are electronic but I have not been offered sight of them.

A domestic fan has been placed to blow in the direction of the motor.

We have been told that a 90 start per hour lift is grossly underspecified. The door dwell is 10 seconds and a ground to 4th floor trip takes a total of 60 seconds. The average trip takes 40 seconds. So is 90 starts roughly adequate?

There are 60 flats in total sharing this one small lift (450kg).

My whole beef with Housing 21 and Otis is that for all we know this thing is failing because 2 cents of thermal grease is missing from a heat sink. Or perhaps when Otis repaired the initial problem they inadvertantly introduced a software change in the motor driver. We just don't know. By the time Otis show up whatever it was that was hot has cooled down.

Would it not be the sensible thing to do to get the original installer (who are a UK distributor of Orona) to do a proper electrical evaluation of the installation?

I think that we are being led up the garden path.

Thankyou for reading/replying my thread.

 

[malcolmsanford]

Are these the flats opposite waitrose in the town ? As I did some design work on the building but unfortunately not the elevator side.

Otis are not normally an incompetent company, in all the dealings I had with them and as Tony pointed out they service just about any type of lift.

As you have said for 5 years the lifts have worked perfectly, so the system as either developed a fault, something as changed in the lift room to cause over heating or the original design was inadequate.

If it was a fault that had developed I would imagine with Otis experience of over 100 years in the lift industry they would have an engineer somewhere that would diagnose it.

Unless there as be structural work or additional electrical equipment installed into the plant room, what would now induce enough heat to affect the system.

If though the system was under designed, then yes over use would create this heat, that will eventually cause system failure. I expect that it could be a combination of original under design, perhaps not allowing for excessive use and therefore breakdown in the system.

 

[Eschatonic]

Yes - they are opposite Waitrose. Sadly many aspects of the building have been troublesome from the drains (appalling problems), the electrical plant (significant refit required) and for the last 6 months the lift.

I accept that Otis have a fab reputation but after 5 months of 'investigation' we have been told by Housing 21 that it "seems to be a heat related problem". The Otis engineers that I have spoken to seem pretty clueless to be honest. If a company can't/won't fix something in 5 months I have to question their suitability for the job.

In any event taking a lift out of service for 8 weeks and a spend of £35,000 plus a new lift at £60,000 seems plain daft without knowing if it could be fixed for potentially a lot less. 90 year old people cannot go 8 weeks without a lift.

Please set me straight if you think I'm wrong but I would start by sitting in the plant room with an infra red thermometer while someone did floor to floor continuous trips. Maybe it's just a lousy resistor pack getting a bit warm!

Am I being naive?

Thanks for your comment from way over in Saudi.

 

[malcolmsanford]

I'm afraid that these flats were not really well thought out for location or construction. The trouble was as is the case in a lot of areas in Ramsgate the old Victorian Sewage system was just not capable for sustaining the occupation forecast for these flats.

If I remember rightly these flats do not contain a service lift, I maybe wrong there but something in my memory tells me this, and as I never had any dealings with the lift side I wasn't paying that much attention. Do they have a service lift?

 

[Engineer54]

As you say, this lift does seem a little on the small side for a five story building, covering 60 flats. I was originally thinking along the lines of around 4 flats per floor. lol! I take it, that the average flat occupation is 2 persons making around 120 occupants in total?? Are you by the way one of the occupants of this building??

I doubt very much that the Otis service/repair reports are solely electronic, you can bet your life on their being paper copies in the system somewhere!!

As Malcolm stated, if this lift worked for 5 years without issue, then a fault has developed or something has changed within the plant room that is creating a new heat source. What was the original means of ventilation to the lift plant room? You really need to look at those service /repair reports, to see what Otis have been doing or not doing, since these breakdowns started.

I cant see a standard domestic floor fan being of much use at all, it's just going to blow hot around the room. There should have been an extract fan or fans sized for the correct number of air changes the room requires, to reduce any heat gain of installed equipment. To be honest an adequate means of forced ventilation should have been provided during the build!!

 

[netblindpaul]

5 years in a hot room, electrolytic caps drying out?...

 

[Engineer54]

5 years in a hot room, electrolytic caps drying out?...

That would be a very good starting point Paul, far better than plonking a domestic fan aimed at the lift motor!! lol!!

 

[netblindpaul]

Having worked for an Invertor/Servo Drive Manuf' on service & applications this is a common failure mode for abused systems.
So if the lift has a soft start/inverter that may be a good place to start.
However, the so called lift "engineers" who are not actually engineers probably have no clue about the deterioration of electrolytic capacitors in elevated temperatures.
Hmm, been here recently...
Recurring theme I think, competence I think is the word I am looking for!