R
R G
I would rather fault find at a light switch than start pulling up floor boards to find joint boxes , yesterday I ha to find a JB inside a flat roof for down lights , now there's some holes to plaster up, Lol
L
Leesparkykent
IMO I can't see a genuine reason why any one would be that against it if the situation calls for it.
When wiring down lighters on new builds etc I will 9 X out of 10 feed the switch, I would rather have 3 cables at the switch than 4 at the 1st down light!
When wiring down lighters on new builds etc I will 9 X out of 10 feed the switch, I would rather have 3 cables at the switch than 4 at the 1st down light!
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Engineer54
So there wouldn't be any JB's in that flat roof where several recessed fittings have been installed with looping through the switch?? Pull the other leg it's got bells on!! What you had there is just a badly designed and installed installation by the original electrician...
Oh and during that easy fault finding at the switch, keep your fingers crossed that the fault isn't on any of the drops to those switches, especially when you have considerably more than the minimum of 3 cables....
O
Octopus
It strikes me that many years in China has left you behind with how things are done in the UK.....
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Engineer54
What are you saying here, that you would loop through the all the circuits switches in order to make one room easier to wire??
Be a different story if there were conciderably more cables at the switch than just 3 you're quoting here. Whats so terrible about terminating 4 cables at the first down light then??
I really don't get this ''Easy'' thing for switch looping, ...considerably more work is involved as well as around half as much addition cable required, and for all that time and effort, you end up with a ****pot lighting circuit, ....So i guess it all makes sense then...lol!!
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Engineer54
Murdoch, if that's what you consider ''progress'' then you're more than welcome to it.
It doesn't matter where i've spent the last few years working, you'd not change my mind on 3 plating at the switch positions...
E
Engineer54
Is that what you did too??
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Engineer54
Which is easily achievable without looping at the switches...
It most certainly is..
some of the switches I've seen remind me of those daft records where people are trying to see how many can fit into a phone box
O
Octopus
When you see all the ****e "chinese" fittings sold by all and sundry, which don't have the space to accomodate anything except L,N & E at the fitting you may just review your thoughts...
E
Engineer54
Think you'll find that those fittings you're talking about were manufactured with continental Europe in mind NOT the UK market!! Light fittings destined for the UK market tend to include BESA box fixings. Blame the sheds etc for purchasing/importing light fittings that don't suite UK wiring methods rather than blaming the country they were made in!!
Told you before, you'll never convince me that 3 plating at switch positions is superior, because it's anything BUT!!
O
Octopus
Did anyone suggest it was superior. As the designer of a lighting circuit you consider the options, then install to the best method.
If its a cheap install with old fashioned pendents then 3 plate every light.
If its a reasonable spec, with downlights, wall lights, outside lights, fans etc then looping at switches is my preferred route.
Neither is superior, - either is OK.
Simples.
C
cobrauk
Not seen that item before but I have a Question how can that item fuse the live and switch wire or do you only need to fuse the perm live on a fan ? we always fit a local switch fuse to feed the bathroom lights that way its all covered by 1 fuse.
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Engineer54
There is no need to loop through the switches to easily accommodate any of those examples you give here... I wouldn't design a complete lighting circuit around a light fitting either. Which is all in all what i've been saying all the while.
OK i take your point about my stating ''superior'', but i'll take issue with switch looping being OK!! lol!!
You are all going to carry on doing what you would have done anyway, so if that's switch looping, so be it, just carry on regardless. But you're flogging the proverbial dead horse trying to convince me that 3 plate looping with T&E at switch positions is a good installation method. It Ain't, ...End Of!! lol!!
D
Deleted member 9648
I dont think anyone designs a complete lighting circuit around one light. The last lighting circuit I wired consisted of a mixture of standard 3 plate,and looping in at the switch in one room where there were 4 LED downlights. As a result there were a maximum of two cables at each DL which were easily terminated in a clik connector. The drop to the switch was in 20mm plastic,which easily took 3x1.5mm T/E cables,into a 35mm box. Thats the way I wire a circuit,just because 1 point is 3 plate or to the switch doesnt mean they all have to be the same.
For a long time now I've avoided JB wiring,there are too many instances where previously accessible JB's have become inaccessible. Far better to keep all terminations either in the lights or switches as deemed best. Fault finding is a much simpler prospect than trying to track down a JB in an unknown position.
I rarely work in houses (try to avoid them tbh!)
But when I do I 3 plate the fitting, never liked doing the switches.
When it comes to downlights a wago box with connectors is the way to go!
But when I do I 3 plate the fitting, never liked doing the switches.
When it comes to downlights a wago box with connectors is the way to go!
L
Leesparkykent
No I'm not saying I would loop through all the switches every time either way is fine with me. I just gave down lighters as one example where I would consider feeding the switch as generally I buy down lighters with generous terminals so the cables can terminate straight in to the fitting to avoid using a junction box at every downlight and having unnecessary connections, this would not be possible if I fed the 1st down light and would still have to use a junction box for the 1st fitting .On new builds as in my post I don't really see how you can consider it being more work, I could under stand on a rewire where chases are involved etc it could be considered more work then I would feed the 1st down light.As for using more cable if it makes my life easier for second fixing, the extra cable is factored in to my price for feeding the switch so it isn't coming out of my back pocket.Just because you don't agree with it doesn't make it wrong or bad practise lol.
E
Engineer54
Of course it's more work, whether it be new builds or rewires!! ...More cable to install, more cable to be fixed to switch drops, much deeper boxes to be sunk. dressing the loops and other lines into the back boxes, trying to ensure enough room for the switch plates....
So in fact you're poor customers are being made to pay over the odds, for a **** pot lighting circuit, so that you can think you'll have an easier second fix!! Funny how supporters of this crap wiring system only ever talk about 3 cables at the switches, never the 6 or more cables when multiple 2 ways and intermediates are involved.... As i say you carry on regardless, and i'll stick with the tried and proven method.... and i'll be finished before you. ...lol!!
Before the advent of domestic switch accessories that requires a neutral, and homeowners taking far too much notice of TV home shows presenters having multiple recessed lighting in kitchens and lounges etc... 3 plate Looping at the switches was indeed deemed Bad Practice, and for many years too!! .... As for Me, nothings changed my mind!!
J
Jonspark
like the way Eng laughs at the end of the second paragraph....lol!!
O
Octopus
R
R G
The junction box was where the old light fitting would have been and pushed above the ceiling and to one side by some fool and the ceiling since then re plastered , I had to find it to rectify the fault on a temporary basis , as I am returning to rewire all this area and take all feeds into an airing cupboard with an RB4 Joint box there , all the new cables to the down lights will be looped through the connection on the back of the new LED fittings I am going to install , the customer tells me the RCD has been tripping intermittently for the last month or so before the fault was found , If the feed had been taken to a switch and then feed straight out to the existing fittings that have the facility for looping through them then I wouldn't have had to knock holes all over the ceiling to find that silly junction box and eliminate the neutral earth fault
As already mentioned you have to do what you see fit according the type of light fittings you're installing and the design and construction of the property , this can only be assessed by the guy on the ground..
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GMES
102 posts about a light switch, come on lads!
You will never get 2 electricians to agree on everything all of the time, different electricians do things different ways and as long as both ways are safe then there shouldn't be an issue. sometimes as sensible people we just have to agree to disagree.
You will never get 2 electricians to agree on everything all of the time, different electricians do things different ways and as long as both ways are safe then there shouldn't be an issue. sometimes as sensible people we just have to agree to disagree.
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Leesparkykent
No not at all. Lol...
Attachments
This subject has been discussed multiple times over and always gets mixed opinions. At the end of the day each method has advantages and disadvantages.
Either way the circuit is going to function exactly the same and it is down to the electrician designing/installing the circuit to do so how they see fit.
I am sure there are much bigger problems going on in the world than neutrals at switches to be honest.
If it is safe and complies with BS7671 then what actually is the big issue?
D
Deleted member 9648
I think it's the completely illogical argument of E54 that keeps this 'debate' dragging on.He has never given a valid reason for looping in at switches being bad practice because ALL of the reasons given apply equally to looping in at lights. I've seen some appallingly congested switch boxes.....just as many times as I've seen appallingly congested light fittings.Both are due to poor design,not the wiring method employed.
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davesparks
There wouldn't be any JBs in that roof, no. What makes you think there would be? The cables will link from one light to the next all being terminated directly to the light fitting.
How can you make that statement, your not there, might be jb's in roof or maybe not.
D
Dcf
I've just 1st fixed a early 60s prefab with a flat roof and 2" thick internal block walls.
method for lighting?
i give you the good old joint box method.
sited in the cupboard at the upstair along with the tv points as there is no attic space.
it makes 2nd fixing a doddle and was the method of choice for a good 30 years in my area
you can stick the loop in out at the lights up your arse.
it was a ****e way to wire the first time round
nothing I've read on here will change my mind on that
method for lighting?
i give you the good old joint box method.
sited in the cupboard at the upstair along with the tv points as there is no attic space.
it makes 2nd fixing a doddle and was the method of choice for a good 30 years in my area
you can stick the loop in out at the lights up your arse.
it was a ****e way to wire the first time round
nothing I've read on here will change my mind on that
T
test electrical
Think of it t&e looped in and out of every switch and a t&e to every light and all the switches or on the central walls of a house making all your cable runs shorter ZS's better no singles and on rose's that look like a bush roll on the 18th and do away with the ring and we will all be better off for it.
Ill be retired by then when it gets easy.
Ill be retired by then when it gets easy.
D
davesparks
What the hell is your problem? That post was a direct response to E54's comments about looping at the switches requiring JBs in the roof space. That is why I quoted E54s post in mine, if my post had been in response to one of yours I would have quoted your post, or mentioned you by name if it was directed at or specifically concerning you.
I have at no point attempted to tell you what was or was not in the roof void in question.
I have at no point attempted to tell you what was or was not in the roof void in question.
Last edited by a moderator:
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GMES
Guys please try to keep the thread on track and not turn it into a slanging match.
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Leesparkykent
Deleted
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Engineer54
Stated at least 3 times now that those that think looping at the switches is a good idea will still carry on regardless so it's basically down to you and people like you with your own illogical arguments that keep this thread dragging on.... Do they hell as like equally apply to looping in at the lighting positions, you don't see multiple 2 ways and intermediate cables being part of the equation within light fittings etc!!
You must be bloody blind, i've clearly stated the VALID reasons why looping through switches makes for a p***poor system. If you don't accept those reasons tough, what can i say!! lol!!
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Engineer54
Now that's just about the biggest load of clap trap on the whole thread!!
K
Knobhead
For gods sake!
118 posts over what is after all personal preference.
I despair, I really do.
118 posts over what is after all personal preference.
I despair, I really do.
G
GMES
The most sensible post out of 119, totally agree
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