L & N at the switch

Charlie_ · Feb 26, 2015

Engineer54 said:
Which is easily achievable without looping at the switches...

It most certainly is..

some of the switches I've seen remind me of those daft records where people are trying to see how many can fit into a phone box

Octopus · Feb 26, 2015

Engineer54 said:
Murdoch, if that's what you consider ''progress'' then you're more than welcome to it.

It doesn't matter where i've spent the last few years working, you'd not change my mind on 3 plating at the switch positions...

When you see all the ****e "chinese" fittings sold by all and sundry, which don't have the space to accomodate anything except L,N & E at the fitting you may just review your thoughts...

Engineer54 · Feb 26, 2015

Murdoch said:
When you see all the ****e "chinese" fittings sold by all and sundry, which don't have the space to accomodate anything except L,N & E at the fitting you may just review your thoughts...

Think you'll find that those fittings you're talking about were manufactured with continental Europe in mind NOT the UK market!! Light fittings destined for the UK market tend to include BESA box fixings. Blame the sheds etc for purchasing/importing light fittings that don't suite UK wiring methods rather than blaming the country they were made in!!

Told you before, you'll never convince me that 3 plating at switch positions is superior, because it's anything BUT!!

Octopus · Feb 26, 2015

Engineer54 said:
Think you'll find that those fittings you're talking about were manufactured with continental Europe in mind NOT the UK market!! Light fittings destined for the UK market tend to include BESA box fixings. Blame the sheds etc for purchasing/importing light fittings that don't suite UK wiring methods rather than blaming the country they were made in!!

Told you before, you'll never convince me that 3 plating at switch positions is superior, because it's anything BUT!!

Did anyone suggest it was superior. As the designer of a lighting circuit you consider the options, then install to the best method.

If its a cheap install with old fashioned pendents then 3 plate every light.

If its a reasonable spec, with downlights, wall lights, outside lights, fans etc then looping at switches is my preferred route.

Neither is superior, - either is OK.

Simples.

cobrauk · Feb 26, 2015

Not seen that item before but I have a Question how can that item fuse the live and switch wire or do you only need to fuse the perm live on a fan ? we always fit a local switch fuse to feed the bathroom lights that way its all covered by 1 fuse.

Leesparkykent said:
you could just get a fan that doesn't require to be protected by a 3amp fuse or use one of these fan isolator switches.

Excel 3 Pole Fused Fan Isolator Switch - White | QVS Electrical Wholesalers

Engineer54 · Feb 26, 2015

Murdoch said:
If its a reasonable spec, with downlights, wall lights, outside lights, fans etc then looping at switches is my preferred route.

Neither is superior, - either is OK.

Simples.

There is no need to loop through the switches to easily accommodate any of those examples you give here... I wouldn't design a complete lighting circuit around a light fitting either. Which is all in all what i've been saying all the while.

OK i take your point about my stating ''superior'', but i'll take issue with switch looping being OK!! lol!!

You are all going to carry on doing what you would have done anyway, so if that's switch looping, so be it, just carry on regardless. But you're flogging the proverbial dead horse trying to convince me that 3 plate looping with T&E at switch positions is a good installation method. It Ain't, ...End Of!! lol!!

Deleted member 9648 · Feb 26, 2015

Engineer54 said:
There is no need to loop through the switches to easily accommodate any of those examples you give here... I wouldn't design a complete lighting circuit around a light fitting either. Which is all in all what i've been saying all the while.

OK i take your point about my stating ''superior'', but i'll take issue with switch looping being OK!! lol!!

You are all going to carry on doing what you would have done anyway, so if that's switch looping, so be it, just carry on regardless. But you're flogging the proverbial dead horse trying to convince me that 3 plate looping with T&E at switch positions is a good installation method. It Ain't, ...End Of!! lol!!

I dont think anyone designs a complete lighting circuit around one light. The last lighting circuit I wired consisted of a mixture of standard 3 plate,and looping in at the switch in one room where there were 4 LED downlights. As a result there were a maximum of two cables at each DL which were easily terminated in a clik connector. The drop to the switch was in 20mm plastic,which easily took 3x1.5mm T/E cables,into a 35mm box. Thats the way I wire a circuit,just because 1 point is 3 plate or to the switch doesnt mean they all have to be the same.
For a long time now I've avoided JB wiring,there are too many instances where previously accessible JB's have become inaccessible. Far better to keep all terminations either in the lights or switches as deemed best. Fault finding is a much simpler prospect than trying to track down a JB in an unknown position.

Tiny Spark · Feb 26, 2015

I rarely work in houses (try to avoid them tbh!)
But when I do I 3 plate the fitting, never liked doing the switches.
When it comes to downlights a wago box with connectors is the way to go!

Leesparkykent · Feb 26, 2015

Engineer54 said:
What are you saying here, that you would loop through the all the circuits switches in order to make one room easier to wire??

Be a different story if there were conciderably more cables at the switch than just 3 you're quoting here. Whats so terrible about terminating 4 cables at the first down light then??

I really don't get this ''Easy'' thing for switch looping, ...considerably more work is involved as well as around half as much addition cable required, and for all that time and effort, you end up with a ****pot lighting circuit, ....So i guess it all makes sense then...lol!!

No I'm not saying I would loop through all the switches every time either way is fine with me. I just gave down lighters as one example where I would consider feeding the switch as generally I buy down lighters with generous terminals so the cables can terminate straight in to the fitting to avoid using a junction box at every downlight and having unnecessary connections, this would not be possible if I fed the 1st down light and would still have to use a junction box for the 1st fitting .On new builds as in my post I don't really see how you can consider it being more work, I could under stand on a rewire where chases are involved etc it could be considered more work then I would feed the 1st down light.As for using more cable if it makes my life easier for second fixing, the extra cable is factored in to my price for feeding the switch so it isn't coming out of my back pocket.Just because you don't agree with it doesn't make it wrong or bad practise lol.

Engineer54 · Feb 26, 2015

Leesparkykent said:
No I'm not saying I would loop through all the switches every time either way is fine with me. I just gave down lighters as one example where I would consider feeding the switch as generally I buy down lighters with generous terminals so the cables can terminate straight in to the fitting to avoid using a junction box at every downlight and having unnecessary connections, this would not be possible if I fed the 1st down light and would still have to use a junction box for the 1st fitting .On new builds as in my post I don't really see how you can consider it being more work, I could under stand on a rewire where chases are involved etc it could be considered more work then I would feed the 1st down light.As for using more cable if it makes my life easier for second fixing, the extra cable is factored in to my price for feeding the switch so it isn't coming out of my back pocket.Just because you don't agree with it doesn't make it wrong or bad practise lol.

Of course it's more work, whether it be new builds or rewires!! ...More cable to install, more cable to be fixed to switch drops, much deeper boxes to be sunk. dressing the loops and other lines into the back boxes, trying to ensure enough room for the switch plates....

So in fact you're poor customers are being made to pay over the odds, for a **** pot lighting circuit, so that you can think you'll have an easier second fix!! Funny how supporters of this crap wiring system only ever talk about 3 cables at the switches, never the 6 or more cables when multiple 2 ways and intermediates are involved.... As i say you carry on regardless, and i'll stick with the tried and proven method.... and i'll be finished before you. ...lol!!

Before the advent of domestic switch accessories that requires a neutral, and homeowners taking far too much notice of TV home shows presenters having multiple recessed lighting in kitchens and lounges etc... 3 plate Looping at the switches was indeed deemed Bad Practice, and for many years too!! .... As for Me, nothings changed my mind!!

Jonspark · Feb 26, 2015

like the way Eng laughs at the end of the second paragraph....lol!!

Octopus · Feb 26, 2015

Engineer54 said:
There is no need to loop through the switches to easily accommodate any of those examples you give here... I wouldn't design a complete lighting circuit around a light fitting either. Which is all in all what i've been saying all the while.

OK i take your point about my stating ''superior'', but i'll take issue with switch looping being OK!! lol!!

You are all going to carry on doing what you would have done anyway, so if that's switch looping, so be it, just carry on regardless. But you're flogging the proverbial dead horse trying to convince me that 3 plate looping with T&E at switch positions is a good installation method. It Ain't, ...End Of!! lol!!

Oh do give up.

Either is OK so give it a break.

R G · Feb 26, 2015

Engineer54 said:
So there wouldn't be any JB's in that flat roof where several recessed fittings have been installed with looping through the switch?? Pull the other leg it's got bells on!! What you had there is just a badly designed and installed installation by the original electrician...

Oh and during that easy fault finding at the switch, keep your fingers crossed that the fault isn't on any of the drops to those switches, especially when you have considerably more than the minimum of 3 cables....

The junction box was where the old light fitting would have been and pushed above the ceiling and to one side by some fool and the ceiling since then re plastered , I had to find it to rectify the fault on a temporary basis , as I am returning to rewire all this area and take all feeds into an airing cupboard with an RB4 Joint box there , all the new cables to the down lights will be looped through the connection on the back of the new LED fittings I am going to install , the customer tells me the RCD has been tripping intermittently for the last month or so before the fault was found , If the feed had been taken to a switch and then feed straight out to the existing fittings that have the facility for looping through them then I wouldn't have had to knock holes all over the ceiling to find that silly junction box and eliminate the neutral earth fault

As already mentioned you have to do what you see fit according the type of light fittings you're installing and the design and construction of the property , this can only be assessed by the guy on the ground..

GMES · Feb 26, 2015

102 posts about a light switch, come on lads!
You will never get 2 electricians to agree on everything all of the time, different electricians do things different ways and as long as both ways are safe then there shouldn't be an issue. sometimes as sensible people we just have to agree to disagree.

Leesparkykent · Feb 26, 2015

Engineer54 said:
Of course it's more work, whether it be new builds or rewires!! ...More cable to install, more cable to be fixed to switch drops, much deeper boxes to be sunk. dressing the loops and other lines into the back boxes, trying to ensure enough room for the switch plates....

So in fact you're poor customers are being made to pay over the odds, for a **** pot lighting circuit, so that you can think you'll have an easier second fix!! Funny how supporters of this crap wiring system only ever talk about 3 cables at the switches, never the 6 or more cables when multiple 2 ways and intermediates are involved.... As i say you carry on regardless, and i'll stick with the tried and proven method.... and i'll be finished before you. ...lol!!

Before the advent of domestic switch accessories that requires a neutral, and homeowners taking far too much notice of TV home shows presenters having multiple recessed lighting in kitchens and lounges etc... 3 plate Looping at the switches was indeed deemed Bad Practice, and for many years too!! .... As for Me, nothings changed my mind!!

No not at all. Lol...

L & N at the switch

Charlie_

-

Octopus

Engineer54

Octopus

cobrauk

Engineer54

Deleted member 9648

Tiny Spark

-

Leesparkykent

Engineer54

Jonspark

Octopus

R G

GMES

Leesparkykent

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