More POWAA for my welder

ion529 · Jun 28, 2018

Okay so, I have a shed down the end of my garden where I like to weld and do stupid stuff. Anyway I have an arc welder which at maximum power gives me 160A @ 20V which is 3200W. When my parents built the shed they didn't take into account that there son was going to be a raging metal melting maniac and hence there is just 2 G-pin 13A @ 230V AC sockets in the entire shed, very inconsiderate I know. This of course allows for a maximum of 2990W which just isn't good enough if I want to weld thick steel without the fuse going every 2 seconds.

Luckily the electrician clearly saw my future struggles and popped in a 25A breaker for the shed on the mains board back up at the house when it was built. But here's where things get a little iffy: The cable for the shed comes in though a big dirty black wire from the house underground and goes straight into the G-pin sockets and then a smaller grey wire goes from the sockets to the strip light up above. (I've attached a highly detailed diagram below) I assumed that the strip light was just in parallel with the power coming into the sockets and turning off the power for the shed at the breaker would therefore turn off the sockets and the lights. But alas it only turned off the sockets and the lights are still fully functional. I don't know what witchcraftery this is but I don't really want to open up the socket and have a peak if there's live electricity going through her. My plan was to just attach a big 16Amp connector to the big dirty cable but it seems a bit tricky as I've no idea whats going on inside the socket.

Thanks in advance,

[ElectriciansForums.net] More POWAA for my welder

Peter

Spoon · Jun 28, 2018

ion529 said:
Well I have a 25A Breaker installed and there's a switch on the wall i'm using to turn the light on and off (between the light and socket on the gray cable)

Yes, you stated that there is a 25A breaker. You also stated that you thought of putting a 16A connector onto the cable.
So the welder will not need more than 16A then, but what is the max rating for the input. The output is in your original post.
From what you have put so far, the whole wiring of this sounds dodgy...

ion529 · Jun 28, 2018

DPG said:
Give us a photo of the light switch and socket (including wires to/from them).

It's not a windup which is the funny part here you go:

The cable goes to this switch:

Via this relay:

To this light:

And heres the welder for good measure:

ion529 · Jun 28, 2018

DPG said:
Give us a photo of the light switch and socket (including wires to/from them).

It's not a windup which is the funny part here you go:

View attachment 43026
The cable goes to this switch:
View attachment 43027
Via this relay:
View attachment 43028
To this light:
View attachment 43029
And heres the welder for good measure:
View attachment 43030

ion529 · Jun 28, 2018

Spoon said:
Yes, you stated that there is a 25A breaker. You also stated that you thought of putting a 16A connector onto the cable.
So the welder will not need more than 16A then, but what is the max rating for the input. The output is in your original post.
From what you have put so far, the whole wiring of this sounds dodgy...

Max input for the welder is 38A

Intoelectrics · Jun 28, 2018

ion529 said:
Look buddy the last thing i'm doing is employing an electrician. Over the years every single electrician we've ever employed has done a seriously half assed job which then requires us to hire another one for another 200 quid. I'm not saying all electricians are bad but all the ones in my area set everything they do up to fail within 6 months so they can secure more income later on. I'm not interested in someone coming and screwing up my electrics so I may aswell setup a direct debit to them for the rest of my life.

There are cowboys in every trade but if you have hired a "cowboy" every time I'd be surprised. Unless of course every time its someone you have just chucked a few quid at cause they claim to be an electrician and are cheap.

No one on here is going to advise you on attempting to fix the problem yourself. The advise given so far is the correct advise and my advise is that you take it. :- You need to hire the services of a good electrician who can then advise you on the best possible option for what you require.

The job maybe a simple fix and you might be able to achieve what you want relatively cheaply, alternatively what you want may not be safely do-able without re-doing the install entirely. But we cannot soundly advise you on this over an internet forum without the full details and an initial inspection of your current set up.

Sorry but this is the reality of the situation.

ion529 · Jun 28, 2018

Intoelectrics said:
There are cowboys in every trade but if you have hired a "cowboy" every time I'd be surprised. Unless of course every time its someone you have just chucked a few quid at cause they claim to be an electrician and are cheap.

No one on here is going to advise you on attempting to fix the problem yourself. The advise given so far is the correct advise and my advise is that you take it. :- You need to hire the services of a good electrician who can then advise you on the best possible option for what you require.

The job maybe a simple fix and you might be able to achieve what you want relatively cheaply, alternatively what you want may not be safely do-able without re-doing the install entirely. But we cannot soundly advise you on this over an internet forum without the full details and an initial inspection of your current set up.

Sorry but this is the reality of the situation.

I'm not hiring an electrician, All I want to know is how the light still turns on if the breaker at my house is off.

Dillb · Jun 28, 2018

ion529 said:
Look buddy the last thing i'm doing is employing an electrician. Over the years every single electrician we've ever employed has done a seriously half assed job which then requires us to hire another one for another 200 quid. I'm not saying all electricians are bad but all the ones in my area set everything they do up to fail within 6 months so they can secure more income later on. I'm not interested in someone coming and screwing up my electrics so I may aswell setup a direct debit to them for the rest of my life.

Unfortunately this forum doesnt give step by step instructions, just advice given according to comperance shown by posters, of which you have shown you have very little when it comes to electrics.

Why not post up you location and someone on here maybe local to you to carry out the work.

DPG · Jun 28, 2018

What purpose is the relay serving for the light? I'm intrigued.
And it looks like the armour goes straight into the socket via a stuffing gland - is that correct?

DPG · Jun 28, 2018

If th eight still functions when the MCB you suspect is feeding it is switched off ,then there is only one answer - the light is not fed from that particular breaker.

I can't see any alternative to getting a sparky in for this. Do let us know what that relay does though. Tell us where the cables into the relay box go to.

Intoelectrics · Jun 28, 2018

Looking at the pictures you have posted, the current install is a bad one. The lighting is spurred straight off from the socket with no adequate protection. The socket is supplied directly from the incoming swa and poorly terminated.
Sorry but you cannot sort this problem out safely D.I.Y, it requires a professional to put it right.

Intoelectrics · Jun 28, 2018

DPG said:
If th eight still functions when the MCB you suspect is feeding it is switched off ,then there is only one answer - the light is not fed from that particular breaker.

I can't see any alternative to getting a sparky in for this. Do let us know what that relay does though. Tell us where the cables into the relay box go to.

Yes agreed, I missed this point in the original post.

ion529 · Jun 28, 2018

Dillb said:
Unfortunately this forum doesnt give step by step instructions, just advice given according to comperance shown by posters, of which you have shown you have very little when it comes to electrics.

Why not post up you location and someone on here maybe local to you to carry out the work.

I'm not hiring an electrician, All I want to know is how the light still turns on if the breaker at my house is off. Surely the explanation to that is simple that I can understand. e.g. "There is 2 sets of wires in the black cable" or "that's not how a breaker works electricity might still flowing". I don't want step by step instructions just why this is happening. Assuming it's not quantum tunneling or some huge EM field providing my light magically with 230VAC I can figure it out

buzzlightyear · Jun 28, 2018

ion529 said:
Look buddy the last thing i'm doing is employing an electrician. Over the years every single electrician we've ever employed has done a seriously half assed job which then requires us to hire another one for another 200 quid. I'm not saying all electricians are bad but all the ones in my area set everything they do up to fail within 6 months so they can secure more income later on. I'm not interested in someone coming and screwing up my electrics so I may aswell setup a direct debit to them for the rest of my life.

snap.

Intoelectrics · Jun 28, 2018

ion529 said:
I'm not hiring an electrician, All I want to know is how the light still turns on if the breaker at my house is off.

This has already been answered for you.
It cannot be fed from the the same mcb as the socket.

Spoon · Jun 28, 2018

ion529 said:
Max input for the welder is 38A

Things are not looking good for your welder then mate as you only have a 25A breaker. You also suggesting you were going to fit a 16A connector for the 38A welder also does not bode well.

Regarding your light. I would ask your friends/neighbours for a good electrician they have had, and get them to check out the wiring.
Your light must not be wired up to the 25A breaker.