Advice on safety of new Consumer Unit Install

minorcamount said:

Just to add to your question, it may help it may not. I am one of the end terrace of a terrace of 7. We are all on a looped supply, 1 loop comes up my side wall splits to mine then feeds 2 other properties so 3 of the 7 from the incoming loop on my wall, then the remaining 4 in the terrace are looped together on a separate incoming loop on the end of the wall of the other end terrace the other side.

Its a rubber incoming cable with 2 cores. The earthing arrangement has always been like this.


I have also attached a photo of the setup before he came in and installed the new CU
View attachment 98921

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The earthing arrangement in this picture is clearly different to the picture posted after the works to replace the CU as there is no earth cable connected in the neutral of the service head, that now begs the question how was the installation earthed previously and that was probably via an earth rod
Looking at some of the other pictures (no insulation on external supply conductors) it clearly indicates that no contact has been made with the DNO by the contractor so it looks like the contractor has taken the creative decision to make the supply TNC-S when this may not be available on the existing supply
I think the contractor needs to answer some questions on this one and it also needs the DNO to be involved before someone is seriously injured
I would also be contacting NAPIT and Check a Trade as it is time these schemes stepped upto the plate and took action against the rogues they approve

UNG said:

The earthing arrangement in this picture is clearly different to the picture posted after the works to replace the CU as there is no earth cable connected in the neutral of the service head, that now begs the question how was the installation earthed previously and that was probably via an earth rod

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No sign of a VOELCB though which I would expect to see on a TT design of that era, but equally no sign of a supply earth.

Is it possible it relied on the water pipe for a low impedance earth before? Maybe someone remembered when that became a no-no in the reg? I have seen something similar on a property with a likely original installation in the 1940s.

This has been a most interesting thread to read.

pc1966 said:

Maybe someone remembered when that [water pipe as legitimate earth] became a no-no in the reg?

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I asked this a while ago on here, and I was told somewhere between 1940 and 1950.

The original concerns in this thread are relatively minor compared the to state of the incoming supply and the very naughty TN conversion (presumably without permission). Main thing is to call the DNO and it should be a high priority job.

Update.

Sorry I did not say in my post, but I noticed the incoming supply at the same time as the electrics were done, the electrician who changed the CU was aware of the incoming cables and the state they were in.

I did ring the DNO, Northern Powergrid, I explained on the phone about the cables being bare, they asked me to email pictures (the exact ones I posted on here) within 45 minutes someone came out to look at them, within 2 hours of that, they (DNO) were digging up the garden and replacing it, So it has been replaced.

The old box on the outside wall has gone and there is a new cable coming up the existing pipe and connected into the existing cable which is clipped in the photo horizontally. Have photos if interested!

The property was built 1946, my grandmother had some electric work done in early 1980s (don't know what though) but nothing since then.

When I had the central heating system installed back in March, the electrician who wired the boiler fused spur did mention something along the lines of there is no earth! and mentioned something about a ''PME'' (I could have that wrong), but he said i need the dno to provide an earth.

What he did do is he said he will run a bond which he said is not ideal but better than nothing. After he finished I looked and he ran a 10mm earth bond from the water pipe inlet up the wall capped, through the ceiling, under floor upstairs and down in to old consumer unit, The water never had an earth bond, the property never had gas until March this year.


If you look in the photos of what the electrics were like before the CU install, you can see the temporary earth coming through the ceiling originating from the water pipe.

So from all that I take it the property has never had a connection to earth and possible still doesn't if he has done it incorrectly, do I need to check with the DNO to see if its capable of being run the way he has it?

The guy who installed the CU did bond the gas by piggy backing the bond clamp on the water pipe near by.

minorcamount said:

Update.

Sorry I did not say in my post, but I noticed the incoming supply at the same time as the electrics were done, the electrician who changed the CU was aware of the incoming cables and the state they were in.

I did ring the DNO, Northern Powergrid, I explained on the phone about the cables being bare, they asked me to email pictures (the exact ones I posted on here) within 45 minutes someone came out to look at them, within 2 hours of that, they (DNO) were digging up the garden and replacing it, So it has been replaced.

The old box on the outside wall has gone and there is a new cable coming up the existing pipe and connected into the existing cable which is clipped in the photo horizontally. Have photos if interested!

The property was built 1946, my grandmother had some electric work done in early 1980s (don't know what though) but nothing since then.

When I had the central heating system installed back in March, the electrician who wired the boiler fused spur did mention something along the lines of there is no earth! and mentioned something about a ''PME'' (I could have that wrong), but he said i need the dno to provide an earth.

What he did do is he said he will run a bond which he said is not ideal but better than nothing. After he finished I looked and he ran a 10mm earth bond from the water pipe inlet up the wall capped, through the ceiling, under floor upstairs and down in to old consumer unit, The water never had an earth bond, the property never had gas until March this year.


If you look in the photos of what the electrics were like before the CU install, you can see the temporary earth coming through the ceiling originating from the water pipe.

So from all that I take it the property has never had a connection to earth and possible still doesn't if he has done it incorrectly, do I need to check with the DNO to see if its capable of being run the way he has it?

The guy who installed the CU did bond the gas by piggy backing the bond clamp on the water pipe near by.

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Definitely interested in some photos of the new install!

As others have said, it appears that the consumer unit is not the main issue here.

It's likely if they have put a new install in that it is PME capable (which means that an earth could be run as it has been). However, the key is that ONLY the DNO can decide and do that.

It is probably a good idea to contact them again and explain and ask for an earth safety check. They may be able to confirm that the earth is acceptable as it is, and will do it correctly with their labels and an earth terminal.

There are ways to test whether PME is possible/effective, and the electrician may have done that, but it's still not within his remit to decide to change it.

That doesn't make what is in place now unsafe necessarily - though the readings on the certificate will be helpful in deciding that.

It appears that you've been let down by two electricians here.

The first one who did the boiler should have either contacted the DNO themselves or got you to do it, and had them in to see if they could upgrade the earth - at that point I expect they would have noticed the outside cabling and arranged for it to be changed.

The water bonding was necessary as well, so not a waste that he did it, just that it was not an acceptable alternative to a proper main earth. Do you know the if gas has been bonded now too?

The second electrician should not have done anything with the outside cable in that state - they should have called the DNO themselves as an emergency job and waited for it to be fixed before proceeding. They should absolutely not (if they did) have connected the earth up as they did, even if tests suggested that the install was PME.

Now that the new supply is installed, the good news is that it is probably not a huge amount of work to get things into an entirely satisfactory state. It seems like what you need is a competent electrician to oversee ensuring everything is as it should be - and maybe the one who does the EICR could be that.

I would find a few from the NAPIT or NICEIC site that are rated to do EICRs, and contact them for a discussion/quote, but explain the situation. You sound like you have a good enough grasp of the issues now to be able to spot those who do not give good clear answers as to how they would proceed.

Sadly as you've found, ensuring they have membership is not the guarantee it should be.

Not sure if any of the forum members are close to Bradford and willing to assist, or can recommend someone who is reliable and competent.

It may also be worth contacting NAPIT, I am told they have a rather better approach to maintaining their standards than some, so they may be able to assist. Usually, they ask that you go through a complaints procedure with the electrician first, but in this case, if you show them the pictures (or direct them to this post), they may be willing to take a more proactive approach. If I was a NAPIT member, I might even raise it myself with them as a poor example of the "brand" that I was paying for the privilege of representing.

In terms of price for an EICR, it's not always a good guide - You should be able to get a perfectly good EICR for less than £200. I would avoid national firms who specialise in EICRs as they have a habit of fitting in as many in a day as they could and barely scraping the surface.

pc1966 said:

No sign of a VOELCB though which I would expect to see on a TT design of that era, but equally no sign of a supply earth.

Is it possible it relied on the water pipe for a low impedance earth before? Maybe someone remembered when that became a no-no in the reg? I have seen something similar on a property with a likely original installation in the 1940s.

Click to expand...

Hello pc1966.

A metal water pipe was commonly used as the earth with no VOELCB in domestic urban and rural installations until the 14th Edition, 1966. I would guess this was originally one such installation. I would think it should be TT now, but would check with the DNO first.

Regards,

Colin Jenkins.

Did the electrician offer you Surge or Arc fault protection, and as you are going to be letting the property you are going to need fire detectors.

No Surge or Arc offered

Update to some photos here and the paper work he gave me which says it’s an EICR report strangely. So has he done an EICR as well as the CU install

Also a picture of how he left the gas bonding which was behind the kitchen unit, after I pulled the old kitchen out this is what was left

I did find an old bond on the water so the pipe was previously bonded unlike what I thought when I said it was not

Also the photo of the incoming supply after dno changed it in 2 hrs from call which was fast repair, but then again it was really bad and dangerous

You should have an Electrical Installation Certificate for the consumer unit change and a Part P Certificate. That Report is nothing short of disgraceful.
Did he have a care worker with him.

westward10 said:

You should have an Electrical Installation Certificate for the consumer unit change and a Part P Certificate. That Report is nothing short of disgraceful.
Did he have a care worker with him.

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Unfortunately westward, that is the only paperwork he gave me!

So I should be contacting him and asking for those 2 certificates?

Could I ask also what your meaning of disgraceful is?

Do you mean the way it’s printed and completed or the values of the test results?

It looks like his work a mess. He is a con man and shouldn't be undertaking electrical works.

minorcamount said:

So I should be contacting him and asking for those 2 certificates?

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Every new bit of info is a real twist in this saga!

What you have there in theory is a satisfactory EICR, which is what you legally need to rent - and which would normally be charged extra.

It's severely lacking in places, and is printed on the most basic of certificates, but I've seen worse on more professional looking certificates too!

There are noticeable errors or ommisions: Bonding to gas and water doesn't seem to be mentioned at all on it, and some of the values on the test sheet are questionable (1000V IR tests?!).

He also seems to be suggesting there is a socket circuit, on a 16A MCB, with 1mm twin and earth, which would be concerning if true, but appears to be a certificate error (order of circuits is wrong too)

More importantly, what he should have given you for the consumer unit change is an Electrical installation Certificate - which would look quite similar, but is specifically for new work, and most importantly a Part P notification certificate, to prove that the work has been notified to the Local Building Control, as is required by law.

You can check yourself for NICEIC or ELECSA members - at NICEIC Online Certification - http://www.checkmynotification.com/, but it doesn't appear to cover NAPIT work.

Not only is the notification a legal requirement, it is also important because it is required when selling a house these days, and not having it can cause complications with the legal process or additional costs.

In general, only the person who did the work can make that notification, so I would certainly chase up the electrician to get the EIC and Part P certificates - If he doesn't come forward with them, then definitely contact NAPIT and follow the procedure.

Whether you want to let him loose to try and correct his issues is up to you, but I'd be tempted to get someone else to sort the mess out properly - which would probably include a more thorough and trustworthy EICR.

Dartlec said:

Every new bit of info is a real twist in this saga!

What you have there in theory is a satisfactory EICR, which is what you legally need to rent - and which would normally be charged extra.

It's severely lacking in places, and is printed on the most basic of certificates, but I've seen worse on more professional looking certificates too!

There are noticeable errors or ommisions: Bonding to gas and water doesn't seem to be mentioned at all on it, and some of the values on the test sheet are questionable (1000V IR tests?!).

He also seems to be suggesting there is a socket circuit, on a 16A MCB, with 1mm twin and earth, which would be concerning if true, but appears to be a certificate error (order of circuits is wrong too)

More importantly, what he should have given you for the consumer unit change is an Electrical installation Certificate - which would look quite similar, but is specifically for new work, and most importantly a Part P notification certificate, to prove that the work has been notified to the Local Building Control, as is required by law.

You can check yourself for NICEIC or ELECSA members - at NICEIC Online Certification - http://www.checkmynotification.com/, but it doesn't appear to cover NAPIT work.

Not only is the notification a legal requirement, it is also important because it is required when selling a house these days, and not having it can cause complications with the legal process or additional costs.

In general, only the person who did the work can make that notification, so I would certainly chase up the electrician to get the EIC and Part P certificates - If he doesn't come forward with them, then definitely contact NAPIT and follow the procedure.

Whether you want to let him loose to try and correct his issues is up to you, but I'd be tempted to get someone else to sort the mess out properly - which would probably include a more thorough and trustworthy EICR.

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Thank you everyone who has chipped in, and thank you dartlec,

I have send an email and text to the electrician re the Part P and EIC and why I have a EICR instead and why he has it down as 1mm T&E on the socket circuit, and the failure to mention the bonding etc etc etc, I will report back on his response if any.

As for getting it all sorted, I don't trust him coming in now and will need to get another spark in. Only issue is, I inherited the house and its stuck in the 80's so am doing as much work on it myself whilst been partially disabled, kitchen rip out, decorating, even going to try my hand at patch plastering (oh dear please cross your fingers for me on that one)

So not a lot of money to go around and will have to wait till I save a little bit more up.

I obviously thought I would leave the dangerous stuff to the correctly qualified people ie Electrical, and central heating install (I managed to get a grant for the central heating install and the NEW connection to the gas network)

I even thought I was doing it right this time instead of putting an on FB or elsewhere for a sparky I thought I would do it properly and go through Check-a-trade thinking surely nothing can go wrong they're on check-a-trade and thats how I contacted them through that.


Whilst typing this, Sorry for long winded replys, the sparky has replied and I quote verbatim ""Yes ur right, send me a snapshot of the certificate I sent you its obvo wrong and do you need a EICR doing?"""" is this the point I insert (..sic)

He's put the install as TN-S. TN-S would mean the earth is done through the sheathing of the supply cable. What he's attempted to do with the earth would make it a TNC-S.

That work is absolute cack and you're going to have to pay someone else to put it right. I wouldn't have the same guy back to try and remedy it.