The next instalment of the chicken and egg mystery

timhoward · Nov 10, 2022

You might remember this delight from the dodgy trade pictures thread....

[ElectriciansForums.net] The next instalment of the chicken and egg mystery

I finally got back to quote for sorting today.
The chicken and egg question was whether the plumber or the sparks did this. The confusion was there were no fixing holes visible from a previous position. Yet the water pipe is in line with the incoming supply arriving in MPDE though a screed floor. But the insulation is stripped back suggesting it was once in a sensible place.

It was when I noticed that next door's identical house didn't have the door that I was using that the penny dropped.
Yep, new door; the builder did it!

Ok, let's look inside....

So apart from mis-matched devices, being held by one dry-wall screw to the ceiling, wiring stretched to the limit, and IP rating being seriously compromised, it's fine!

Then I saw it:

House is and always has been PME. I'm very familiar with this estate and they are all Legrand normal split load boards. Why the ---- is it a100ma device?!?! Surely that's got to be someone messing up when replacing a failed RCD?

Anyway, a new RCBO board would solve a lot of issues, as hopefully the Neutral's will then reach. And they are only using 12 ways so a smaller board should fit. I have a feeling there's some fun ahead here.

littlespark · Nov 10, 2022

Now i'm no builder... and please correct me if i'm wrong..... but shouldn't there be a lintel above that door?

timhoward · Nov 10, 2022

littlespark said:
Now i'm no builder... and please correct me if i'm wrong..... but shouldn't there be a lintel above that door?

I think there's an I-beam RSJ, I could see the bottom of it above the door and it looks as though all of the blocks have been disturbed about it.
That could well introduce further fun - we'll see!

mainline · Nov 10, 2022

timhoward said:
You might remember this delight from the dodgy trade pictures thread....
View attachment 103503

I finally got back to quote for sorting today.
The chicken and egg question was whether the plumber or the sparks did this. The confusion was there were no fixing holes visible from a previous position. Yet the water pipe is in line with the incoming supply arriving in MPDE though a screed floor. But the insulation is stripped back suggesting it was once in a sensible place.

It was when I noticed that next door's identical house didn't have the door that I was using that the penny dropped.
Yep, new door; the builder did it!

View attachment 103504

Ok, let's look inside....
View attachment 103505
So apart from mis-matched devices, being held by one dry-wall screw to the ceiling, wiring stretched to the limit, and IP rating being seriously compromised, it's fine!

Then I saw it:

View attachment 103507

House is and always has been PME. I'm very familiar with this estate and they are all Legrand normal split load boards. Why the ---- is it a100ma device?!?! Surely that's got to be someone messing up when replacing a failed RCD?

Anyway, a new RCBO board would solve a lot of issues, as hopefully the Neutral's will then reach. And they are only using 12 ways so a smaller board should fit. I have a feeling there's some fun ahead here.

It could be that they put the 100ma in because they were getting nuisance tripping and thought it to be a good idea.

timhoward · Nov 10, 2022

mainline said:
It could be that they put the 100ma in because they were getting nuisance tripping and thought it to be a good idea.

Good shout. I'll do the usual IR testing in advance of passing the point of no return!

DPG · Nov 10, 2022

I hope the homeowner is going to contact the builder about that !!

littlespark · Nov 10, 2022

timhoward said:
I think there's an I-beam RSJ, I could see the bottom of it above the door and it looks as though all of the blocks have been disturbed about it.
That could well introduce further fun - we'll see!

so what's to the right of the CU? A spur and flex to an outside light?

One of those 'builders' that doesnt really follow any guidelines and a homeowner that possibly didnt tell the council planning dept what they were planning?

Ive got houses in my street where the homeowners have cut through their understairs WC, fitted a door and made an entrance into the garage.....

timhoward · Nov 10, 2022

littlespark said:
so what's to the right of the CU? A spur and flex to an outside light?

Yep, and I was wondering how that passes through an RSJ - if there is one!
Obviously I'll redo that.

DPG said:
I hope the homeowner is going to contact the builder about that !!

They have just moved in. And it highlights how useless surveys are. They were going to buy a basket-case house that needed virtually rebuilding so they paid for a top-price 'full' survey. Then when it fell through they couldn't get a refund so requested a different address, the property in question.

I was then shown the 129 page survey. In the electrical installation section there's a photo of the CU, exactly as above, and it says "The garage consumer unit appears to be in a safe and serviceable condition"

It does then add the usual blurb about getting it inspected by a competent person as it's impossible to assess safety without ripping the place appart.

Now I know survey's are pretty water-tight about washing hands of all responsibility, but this one must be close to legitimate grounds for complaint when it's so obviously been monkeyed about with!

I asked whether the solicitor had picked up building regs / planning permission for the door during the purchase, or whether they got an EIC when they got the kitchen done as the board sticker is 2006. No to all of that.

Pretty Mouth · Nov 10, 2022

littlespark said:
Now i'm no builder... and please correct me if i'm wrong..... but shouldn't there be a lintel above that door?

Looks like there is one, catnic type. I wouldn't expect the depth to be much for a short span like that, so the cable to the outside light probably goes over the top of it.

timhoward · Nov 14, 2022

I just about squeezed in a Fusebox in the end. I'm a bit annoyed I couldn't get it a tad higher but I needed enough space to use the top knockouts too. But it's at least screwed to a wall now, and a definite improvement.
I also felt brave starting this particular one at 3pm!

Vortigern · Nov 14, 2022

littlespark said:
lintel above

probably a catnic one which is slimline at the back and front on a double skin wall. I wondered if the unit was left floating until the plasterer had been?

mainline · Nov 15, 2022

timhoward said:
I just about squeezed in a Fusebox in the end. I'm a bit annoyed I couldn't get it a tad higher but I needed enough space to use the top knockouts too. But it's at least screwed to a wall now, and a definite improvement.
I also felt brave starting this particular one at 3pm!

View attachment 103669

Did you find out as to the reasoning of the 100ma rcd ?

timhoward · Nov 15, 2022

mainline said:
Did you find out as to the reasoning of the 100ma rcd ?

No! The worst IR was 8M and that was an unprotected lighting circuit anyway. All of the RCD side were at least 100M.
I can only assume the original failed, and someone thought "that will do" from ebay etc.

HappyHippyDad · Dec 1, 2022

timhoward said:
I just about squeezed in a Fusebox in the end. I'm a bit annoyed I couldn't get it a tad higher but I needed enough space to use the top knockouts too. But it's at least screwed to a wall now, and a definite improvement.
I also felt brave starting this particular one at 3pm!

View attachment 103669

Blimey Tim! Starting a CU change at 3pm is indeed brave. What time did you finish?
FYI, I have had to squeeze a couple of CU's above a door. The BG range are 230mm high and I believe the fusebox is around 255, so you eek out a few cm's which sometimes saves the day!
Thanks for the update, always good to get

brianmoooore · Dec 1, 2022

Glass panelled outside door?
Next time you visit, you'll find a 40mm hole drilled in the side of the CU, and the end of a curtain pole wedged into it.

timhoward · Dec 1, 2022

HappyHippyDad said:
Blimey Tim! Starting a CU change at 3pm is indeed brave. What time did you finish?

I know the housing estate well, having done several EICRs on other properties, so it was a calculated risk! They are all usually ok, normally loose connections in sockets and sometimes ring neutrals mixed up in the N bar.
I was driving away by 6pm.
I went back the next morning to complete testing and paperwork (I was happy I'd tested enough to energise it overnight - I'd checked IR throughout and rings and did live Zs on every circuit)

mainline · May 11, 2023

brianmoooore said:
Glass panelled outside door?
Next time you visit, you'll find a 40mm hole drilled in the side of the CU, and the end of a curtain pole wedged into it.

That would be a real botch job, when you could use a 28mm curtain pole.

Mike Johnson · May 11, 2023

Nice of them to leave the steps by the CU for you!

DPG · May 11, 2023

Mike Johnson said:
Nice of them to leave the steps by the CU for you!

That photo was on somebody's thread on here a few months ago.

Mike Johnson · May 11, 2023

Tim Howard Dec 1st, who's to blame for dragging it back up again?

Mike Johnson · May 11, 2023

mainline said:
That would be a real botch job, when you could use a 28mm curtain pole.

timhoward · May 11, 2023

Mike Johnson said:
Tim Howard Dec 1st, who's to blame for dragging it back up again?

Ever since the comment about the curtain pole, I think any thread that mentions double pole single pole etc. throws this up as a similar thread!

James · May 11, 2023

timhoward said:
Ever since the comment about the curtain pole, I think any thread that mentions double pole single pole etc. throws this up as a similar thread!

a 28mm curtain pole is a single pole!!

brianmoooore · May 11, 2023

Ooops! My fault then.
...

Mike Johnson · May 11, 2023

Does a 28mm curtain pole have a fly lead.

I will get my coat.

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