Non Compliance?

TedM · Oct 1, 2011

There's nothing wrong with using design software - but you can't use it blindly. You've got to understand what it is telling you and why. Just as you might do with cable sizing calcs in a non-PV context.

But checking and testing an installation is quite different. You must not only be able to recognise problems but also fix them. If you don't have the kit, training and competence to do that then you shouldn't be considered qualified (i.e. MCS accredited) in the first place. PV is no different to any other electrical work in this regard.

cbw · Oct 1, 2011

I am sorry but this is going off at a tangent. My newly installed inverter restarts after 1 minuite of ac shutdown.

I have just bought new desktop and spent £10s of thousands getting set up and now my fking inverter needs a laptop and posh leeds to make it comply with UK regs.

Why the hell have I bought this kit from a reputable supplier when I could have bought it on ebay and saved a fortune????

Rather than just critisise me suggest the bloomin lap top and leeds required. I genuinely thought that SMA stuff was ready for the UK market.

I have all but bust my good electrical company setting this up and am still shocked at the mounting costs.

Thought MCS suppliers would supply uk ready kit!!!!!

cbw · Oct 1, 2011

What a load of ****, really upset about it all......paperwork for paper work sake and now mcs suppliers supplying stuff not set for uk market
#

about ready to chuck myself of a motorway bridge

The Launderer · Oct 1, 2011

BiggsSolar said:
I trust both of them, but I still always check and that isn't my point.

I wouldn't forgo teaching my son simple addition simply because I have a calculator in the house.

I know a lot of installers rely on design software (I went on a course earlier in the year with a room full of them.....) and I know this isn't necessarily an obstacle to them being competent installers, but I simply cannot comprehend the idea that this shouldn't be part of very basic PV training.

My experience of PV installer training is not great.

The surveyors course I attended was a joke.

The tutor was demonstrating the SAP calculation and he thought the azimuth angle was the slope of the roof. He then took us to an installation surrounded by much higher buildings very close and told us there were no shading issues.

No one complained. All they wanted was the certificate so that they can get their MCS accreditation.

Our electrician attended another course and he was not given any info about changing inverter settings either.

I would hazard a guess that most people on this forum that are using laptops and changing inverter settings are self taught and didn't learn these skills at the courses on offer in the UK

nbown · Oct 2, 2011

The Launderer said:
My experience of PV installer training is not great.

The surveyors course I attended was a joke.

Are you stating that standards are slipping for newly MCS accreditation members? I am looking into having a system installed soon, when considering quotes should I or anybody else reading this avoid the newer members?

SolarCity · Oct 2, 2011

I don't think that would be fair. I know of two members that have surprised me with their knowledge yet have only just received accreditation. I know of their standard of work from their previous contracts and they are, frankly, untouchable. Don't judge a firm by how long they have been MCS. Judge them by the standard of their work. This should be the first and foremost concern of a customer and any installer should be able to provide you with some example of their work.

Worcester · Oct 2, 2011

Ask to see for photo's of their actual work and also call their customers for references, almost all of our work (and we are incredibly busy) comes form referrals.

One the other hand, the ongoing saga of a newly accredited (last week) incompetent, (not deliberately cowboy, just plain incompetent) installer,

Took these photo's of a 'corrected' slate install -(owner asked me to check it over) it is being redone again next week - their electrics are OK, on the roof though they are using a mix of themselves (sparks) and roofers with no Solar PV Installation training;

The screws on EVERY bracket were loose, because the bracket used was installed in the wrong way (again...) I could see from the ground that something wasn't correct.

[ElectriciansForums.net] Non Compliance?

The most worrying thing... they have been working for another installer as a sub-contractor for the last 3 months..

So, this customer will get a good job done here, however there must be a number of installations that they have done that are clearly going to cause problems, - who to report them to that actually has any teeth / jurisdiction to make them do anything?

The Launderer · Oct 2, 2011

Again the problems could be down to the poor quality courses.

We just completed our first install last week for our MCS accreditation this Wednesday. The job was done on my own house and I am very pleased with it. The roof has rosemary tiles and no battens and if it wasnt for (1) the time I spent on this forum going through all the threads, (2) spending hours speaking to suppliers of roof brackets before actually talking to someone who seemed to know what they were talking about and (3) the help I received from forum members to questions I asked, I dread to think what kind of mess my roof would be in.

Because of the knowledge I had gained I was able to instruct the roofers on what was required. We are determined that every job we complete will be of the highest standard and that will only be achieved by ensuring that we carry out the work properly. But its a chicken and egg situation - you can't gain the experience without doing the job.

If someone on this forum was to create an electronic book detailing step by step instructions with photographs of the work required on the different roof types and the brackets required they could easily sell it for £50.00 a pop (I would certainly buy it). They could make themselves a few bob and help to bring standards up at the same time.

grandfortune · Oct 2, 2011

Worcester said:
Ask to see for photo's of their actual work and also call their customers for references, almost all of our work (and we are incredibly busy) comes form referrals.

One the other hand, the ongoing saga of a newly accredited (last week) incompetent, (not deliberately cowboy, just plain incompetent) installer,

Took these photo's of a 'corrected' slate install -(owner asked me to check it over) it is being redone again next week - their electrics are OK, on the roof though they are using a mix of themselves (sparks) and roofers with no Solar PV Installation training;

The screws on EVERY bracket were loose, because the bracket used was installed in the wrong way (again...) I could see from the ground that something wasn't correct.

View attachment 8081 View attachment 8082 View attachment 8083 View attachment 8084

The most worrying thing... they have been working for another installer as a sub-contractor for the last 3 months..

So, this customer will get a good job done here, however there must be a number of installations that they have done that are clearly going to cause problems, - who to report them to that actually has any teeth / jurisdiction to make them do anything?

thats terrible, i found one here, consumer unit to close to gas services?

SolarCity · Oct 4, 2011

Very clever, GF.

It's very bad form to try and pick tiny errors on other people's work - Especially the people that actually help you when people like you come on here asking questions.

grandfortune · Oct 4, 2011

very true, its the likes of you worcester and others thathave frankly got me this far, i have come to the conclusion that the course i attended wasn’t upto much but im trying my hardest, its such a struggle with running my electrical business and bringing up 3 kids. i just got a bit annoyed as to the bashing i got from asking what to you are simple questions but to me are so important, as i can see from most of the intelligent ones here your working for big(ish) company's and have the time and money to go on all the courses and conferences but the likes of little old me have to ask all sorts of questions, i was told not to worry about matching inverters so took it in. Its just i felt the linking of me and the pictures worcester put up were basically having a go at me "as a incompetant installer".

ExtremePV · Oct 4, 2011

Hi Cbw,
If your inverter is not G83 spec then send it back to your supplier!

The SB1700 does need the service kit + laptop, so its not as easy as the new HF / TL inverters.

While I agree that its the installers responsibility to check the system, you shouldn't have to program every SMA inverter to UK settings!
It really annoys me when inverters are supplied to UK installers with other country settings. The usual reason is that you can save a few £'s by buying from a non UK official distributor. But how much does it cost you in time to reprogram the inverter?
The real problem is that these comes with any old country settings, and it tends to only be noticed if there is a problem - tripping out due to high AC voltage.
I'm biased.. as I work for a UK distributor who supply factory set G83 inverters...but it really concerns me the number of inverters out there from grey imports with the wrong settings. Not only that, people have been sold SB2100TL's and SB1600TL's which ARE NOT UK certified.
Send it back and get a UK spec one

<end rant>

Ken

cbw · Oct 4, 2011

Thanks Ken, I have tried to return it to Denmans eco, they have again told me that it is my responsibility.

Thus I have bought lap top, downloaded software and blue tooth piggy back on order.

What will be interesting is that my MCS assessment is on the 12th October, not only am I being assessed, my assessor is also being assessed for MCS compliance.

Will be interesting as I have completed all tests ETC and obviously failed tis one and used it as an example of noncompliance etc.

The SB 1200 which is next to the 1700 was g83 so is working away happily.

All in all its quite a complicated one for my first sole peice of work.

Graeme Harrold · Oct 4, 2011

For al of the faults Ive read over the last few months, esp with SMA inverters, most have come down to NOT reading the installation manuals. Its akin to measure twice, cut once. Even if you only read it once to understand what you are installing, it then only takes 30 seconds to know if everything is set correctly.

No 3 day course can teach it all. I dont think any course can teach you roof penetration as there are far too many variables. A roofer has the skills on the roof, the electrician should concentrate on the electrical side. Unless the roof is straight forward slate and rafter then I get an expert in to do my brackets ( not to mention they are quicker).

ExtremePV · Oct 4, 2011

The answers always in the manual Graeme.

Its easy on the new HF/TL SMA inverters to set country settings, but on the older ones like the SB1700 in question here its not. Its factory set.
It comes down to companies selling product not fit for the UK market. i.e. not shipped with G83 settings. Simple.
If you bought a TV from Comet, got it home and found it didn't work as it was NTSC standard rather than PAL, you would be a bit hacked off with the shop. Its the same thing here. Denmans have sold something that isn't for the UK grid. Reading the manual isn't going to help, unless it as a free laptop + service cable hidden inside!

Non Compliance?

TedM

cbw

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cbw

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The Launderer

nbown

SolarCity

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Worcester

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The Launderer

grandfortune

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SolarCity

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grandfortune

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ExtremePV

cbw

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ExtremePV

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