2 spurs from a Junction Box....worried?

[mikep83]

Hi folks.

I cut one of the cables on my ring circuit, attached the 2 now separate ends to a new 30a junction box, and then run 2 additional spurs from the same junction box, using 32a twin and earth, on the end of each of these new spurs is a twin plug socket with usb.

I did the work with my father in law, who’s an avid DIYer and has been doing diy for 60 years.

We did a really good job, cables cut nice, neat, secure, tested them, and all working.

Due to a rush to get the job done before decorators, I pre installed the new sockets and cabling, ready for the junction, and only then did I realise I should have extended the ring.....it was too late, I had sealed the walls up and could not get another cable in. We used a square 30a MK box, which had ample room for the cables.

These are bedside outlets, not for heavy consuming items.

Some forums and people have now put the fear of god in me that this is dangerous, however I have read mixed opinions (e.g. apparatly 1 spur from any point is the Reg, ok.....so I have 2 on mine, but is this really much different than if I added another junction 10 inches away for my second spur)

Is this really a concern to warrant me ripping it all back out?

It’s a good tidy job.
I know there’s regulations and partP......hindsight is a wonderful thing.

Views?
Many thanks.

 

[SparkyChick]

Sparkychick, like your clarity on this.

Thanks hon, but don't get too enthusiastic, I could be wrong

 

[pirate]

Mark, agree...don't want to dream about spurs...or any other team...and I'm off to the pub!
Oh, wait a minute...where's ma troozers?
Sorted!
Night all!

 

[MFS Electrical]

Thanks hon, but don't get too enthusiastic, I could be wrong

I think that’s the absolutely wonderful thing about the regs. They are open to interpretation so we are probably all wrong it’s really only down to yourself and how you justify it that makes it right or wrong everything is right if you can justify it.

 

[pirate]

Don't think so, sparkychick...nice clean JB connections, 2 spurs, leccy good at each one...overload?
where couldn't you, on any circuit not fused down?
Right, really going now!

 

[SparkyChick]

I think that’s the wonderful thing about the regs. They are open to interpretation so we are probably all wrong it’s really only down to yourself and how you justify it that makes it right or wrong everything is right if you can justify it.

Yeah, but that's also what makes it somewhat scary

 

[MFS Electrical]

Yeah, but that's also what makes it somewhat scary

Yup it would be much better if it was all black and white but it’s grey so the people that wrote it can weasel out throw you under the bus and say thats not how we meant it if you follow it and end up burning down a house killing a family of 5 sheep and destroying a museum.

 

[SparkyChick]

Yup it would be much better if it was all black and white but it’s grey so the people that wrote it can weasel out and say thats not how we meant it if you follow it and end up burning down a house killing a family of 5 sheep and destroying a museum.

As @Murdoch said earlier, I wish they'd focus on clarity instead of climbing into bed with the manufacturers to push their fancy (read expensive) new safety devices.

 

[MFS Electrical]

As @Murdoch said earlier, I wish they'd focus on clarity instead of climbing into bed with the manufacturers to push their fancy (read expensive) new safety devices.

That would be epic but there is a probably another hidden agenda as well they know exactly what they want to say but it will take another 24 editions and multiple amendments for it to be clear - the IET is a very profitable business indeed

 

[SparkyChick]

That would be epic but there is a probably another hidden agenda as well they know exactly what they want to say but it will take another 24 editions and multiple amendments for it to be clear - the IET is a very profitable business indeed

So maybe the end of next year then we might get some clarity? Either that or we'll all be broke and out of business

 

[Deuce]

It's still on my mind too and I'm in bed now!!

I'm resolved though, it IS two spurs, it just is. Certainly in every way that matters, it is 2 spurs.

The regs don't cover this. They go far enough to limit overloading of a single spur, they don't cover the possibility of putting 2 in one box because you just don't need specific regulation for that.

As for is it right or wrong to do it this way... If it's not dangerous and doesn't explicitly break regs then it's not wrong. All we have here is something a little unusual. But hey, saved on a second jb and shortened the install time too.

Just a shame an mf box wasn't used for the sake of compliance, but that's a different topic really. And a topic I have some divisive views on so maybe another thread for that tomorrow night

 

[Octopus]

It's still on my mind too and I'm in bed now!!

I'm resolved though, it IS two spurs, it just is. Certainly in every way that matters, it is 2 spurs.

The regs don't cover this. They go far enough to limit overloading of a single spur, they don't cover the possibility of putting 2 in one box because you just don't need specific regulation for that.

As for is it right or wrong to do it this way... If it's not dangerous and doesn't explicitly break regs then it's not wrong. All we have here is something a little unusual. But hey, saved on a second jb and shortened the install time too.

Just a shame an mf box wasn't used for the sake of compliance, but that's a different topic really. And a topic I have some divisive views on so maybe another thread for that tomorrow night

and it uses a screw type JB in an inaccessible location .....

 

[telectrix]

all depends on how you define "inaccessible".if a screw type JB is installed under a screwed down floorboard trap, it's accessible by the use of a screwdriver: same as the screw terminals in a CU are accessible by the use of a screwdriver. now where's my tin hat?

 

[Deuce]

and it uses a screw type JB in an inaccessible location .....

It's a nonsense imo. Make it as accessible as you want and no one will inspect/maintain it until there is a fault someday. And does a correctly torqued screw terminal work free over time? In theory it can... But in reality I find it not to be the case.

We have a number or mobile machines here with 63a 3ph plugs on a trailing lead. As such, at least once a year as part of testing the plugs are opened and the terminals checked - and they're never loose! Not even fractionally. Sure, it helps that they use screw clamp terminals but on the other hand a plug on a trailing lead is in theory an item most exposed to movement of the cable entering it.

I also see others using a drop of threadlock on the terminal screws to prevent and future movement.

The OPs installation doesn't qualify as 'accesible' I know. But it emphatically is accessible by anyone with the ability and tools to open the JB to inspect it, as the only barrier to access is a floorboard fixed with 2 screws - it's as accessible as the JB cover is removable.

The regs say mf under floorboards etc as it's easier to have a blanket rule for all of course. Doesn't do much to encourage common sense thinking though. I personally think the whole MF thing is unnecessary in many such cases and that a good installer can achieve the same long term performance with a screw terminal in anycase.

Let the debate rage

 

[SparkyChick]

I can't speak for @Murdoch but I believe our views on this are pretty similar... it's less about how easy it is to access (at the moment it's easy because there are no fitted carpets), it's more about knowing it's there.

My mantra on the subject is if you can't see it easily when the job is done, make it maintenance free. It saves all the arguments, all the potential issues around subsequent inspection.

That's my personal view, it complies with the regs and no one is likely to change my mind on that

 

[Octopus]

The OPs installation doesn't qualify as 'accessible' I know.

But it emphatically is accessible by anyone with the ability and tools to open the JB to inspect it, as the only barrier to access is a floorboard fixed with 2 screws - it's as accessible as the JB cover is removable.

which renders it inaccessible - are you suggesting that we need to be prepared to lift ALL floorboards to inspect whats hidden - no

There is a reg that says something about items being accessible and under floor boards ISN'T