2391 Required for Electrical Condition Reports (P.I.R's)???

[Steve 82]

Hi,

Just been looking at Elecsa's website for possible registration. I noticed they require the 2391 for you do be able to do electrical condition reports.

Is this the case with all the other bodies too???

Cheers

 

[Amp David]

I mentioned this last year during my annual visit and the reply was no you don't, As long as you're competent to complete a report properly thats all they were wanted.

 

[Steve 82]

really. thats weird because it clearly states this on the application form

http://www.elecsa.co.uk/Documents/Public-Documents/Contractors/Part-P-Application-Form_2011.aspx

maybe its worth ringing them.

 

[Amp David]

Yes it does. Maybe he meant that to do the outright you don't require it, but to be able to say you are Elecsa approved to do them you do.

More coin for them too i suppose

 

[acvc]

Well I tried to buy some online from the NICEIC shop as well, and same thing ..... "you are not permitted to purchase this item". I think they are trying to force people to do their training courses ...... surprise surprise.

 

[NMc]

NICEIC selling things like this to members only

 

[vernam616]

Ironic really as the 2391 course shows us how to complete a 3 page PIR and not a 9 page EICR, so regardless if you had 2391 or not you still dont know

I presume the new qualifications 2394 and 2395 will have been written alongside the EICR

 

[NMc]

The 2391 now includes reference to EICR

 

[lurch]

Elecsa state that you do not need 2391 but experience is still sufficienet, however you still need to be assesed on it, and that costs some dollar!

 

[Edward Amsden]

I think this is a bit of a sticky subject for all the governing bodies. You are looking at someone else's work (quite a part of this you cant see) some of which you are not expected to disturb.
Plus it has been functioning quite safely without a problem.

Big question, how safe is it....
Visual inspection & Testing, what more can be reasonably asked?
How can they teach this, surely this is down to an electricians common sense and experience?!
After all as far as I am aware this report is simply an electricians advice made formal.
I guess the governing bodies just want you to have a qualification to cover themselves if you give poor advise..

Anyone have another view.. I have been wrong many times before...

 

[vernam616]

The 2391 now includes reference to EICR

Currently studying and it does not include eicr

 

[SirKit Breaker]

I can see where Elecsa are coming from, but that doesn't make it right. I have all the qualifications, but i know of some members on here who dont, and are at least as good as me, if not better. Unfortunately the culture we now live in , means that we need loads of bits of paper to prove our competance. Most of those bits of paper are not worth the tree that was cut down for them, a prime example is the 17th edition. The 17th edition does not make an electrician, but the people who recruit seem to think it is the be all and end all, when in fact it is just a qualification on how to use a book. I could teach the Argos catalogue in the same way, but teaching the 17th and Pat testing etc keeps me in work, so i cant complain too much.

Cheers...........Howard

 

[lurch]

I think this is a bit of a sticky subject for all the governing bodies. You are looking at someone else's work (quite a part of this you cant see) some of which you are not expected to disturb.
Plus it has been functioning quite safely without a problem.

Big question, how safe is it....
Visual inspection & Testing, what more can be reasonably asked?
How can they teach this, surely this is down to an electricians common sense and experience?!
After all as far as I am aware this report is simply an electricians advice made formal.
I guess the governing bodies just want you to have a qualification to cover themselves if you give poor advise..

Anyone have another view.. I have been wrong many times before...

"Functioning quite safely without a problem..." now theres a phrase. Surely a lot of faults only manifest themselves under fault conditions, and a PIR/EICR is there to pick that up.

 

[NMc]

Must be your centre then. The C&G examiner will accept either the PIR or EICR as correct answers if the question of naming the report name

Currently studying and it does not include eicr

 

[NMc]

The certificate is a method of proving you are competent in this field

EICR is a comparison of the condition of an existing wiring against current standards

I think this is a bit of a sticky subject for all the governing bodies. You are looking at someone else's work (quite a part of this you cant see) some of which you are not expected to disturb.
Plus it has been functioning quite safely without a problem.

Big question, how safe is it....
Visual inspection & Testing, what more can be reasonably asked?
How can they teach this, surely this is down to an electricians common sense and experience?!
After all as far as I am aware this report is simply an electricians advice made formal.
I guess the governing bodies just want you to have a qualification to cover themselves if you give poor advise..

Anyone have another view.. I have been wrong many times before...

 

[Edward Amsden]

Anyone else got valuable input on this subject.. I am interested to see what is deemed correct..

 

[SirKit Breaker]

Anyone else got valuable input on this subject.. I am interested to see what is deemed correct..

Stay with the terminology as used in the current version of GN3, if you do you will get the marks, if you try to get clever using new terminology, and don't get it right, you lose. Keep it simple.

Cheers.........Howard

 

[pencilpusher]

Elecsa do the approval bit for EICR's and for that you need 2391. However, that is only if you need official registration so you can do work for councils, large landlords etc etc. They can be done in dwellings by a competent person and for that you do not need accreditation with Elecsa on the EICR side.

 

[resettleddave]

Currently studying and it does not include eicr

Did the 2391 exam in Feb 2012 and it was most definitely using the new terminology.

I was also under the impression that to sign off an EICR you had to have the necessary quals i.e. 2391-10 or equivalent because you are assessing other peoples work and not just your own.

 

[NMc]

Regs say competent

 

[brman]

Requirement is that you are competent and experienced. End of....

However how do you prove you are competent when someone decides to prosecute you? Easiest way is to show them your 2391/5 qualifications. "I've not bothered with any training just learnt from experience" would probably not go in your favour!

If you want to put Elecsa etc on your certs then you need to pay them some money and prove you are competent which includes showing the right qualifications. Just like Part P.

Simples....

Anway, I really should get back to my 2395 revision. I got my practical this evening

 

[jase]

really. thats weird because it clearly states this on the application form

http://www.elecsa.co.uk/Documents/Public-Documents/Contractors/Part-P-Application-Form_2011.aspx

maybe its worth ringing them.

Section 3: Electrical Condition Reporting (formerly PIR’s) Assessment (Optional)
Please indicate below if you wish to be assessed for Electrical Condition Reporting (formerly known as PIR’s). Being assessed in reporting does not prevent you from carrying out this type of work as long as your client is happy that you are competent to do so. Being assessed to do this work does give you additional credibility with your customers. It is an optional extra and you can only undertake the assessment if:
• you have a City & Guilds 2391; • a copy of Guidance Note 3; and • have undertaken at least 3 Electrical Condition Reports/PIR’s and have 1 available for review
Electrical Condition Reporting/PIR Assessment required (please tick relevant box) YES NO


You do not need 2391 to do EICR's !! you do need 2391 if you wish to be assesed by elecsa in your ability to do 2391, which as i understand cost £610, so they have the bloody cheek to want to charge you £610, to aquire acknowledegement of the fact that you have a qualification that by its very design makes you competent in something that you do not need to be qualified to do in the first place!!!

 

[jase]

Requirement is that you are competent and experienced. End of....

However how do you prove you are competent when someone decides to prosecute you? Easiest way is to show them your 2391/5 qualifications. "I've not bothered with any training just learnt from experience" would probably not go in your favour!

If you want to put Elecsa etc on your certs then you need to pay them some money and prove you are competent which includes showing the right qualifications. Just like Part P.

Simples....

Anway, I really should get back to my 2395 revision. I got my practical this evening

If you want to put Elecsa on your certs just give em £40 and buy a pad from them if you are part P registered with them, bit cheaper than forking out £600 odd quid

 

[SPARTYKUS]

At one extreme, if my nan wished to, she could 'do' a PIR without a 2391, registration with any body, or a posh form or insurance.

There is no law or rule just lots of people trying to screw money out of you.

Silly example I know but i thought it might add perspective

 

[SirKit Breaker]

Someone has already stated, that you only need competance. That statement could not be more correct.
If you have a bit of time, then look at The memorandum of the Electricity at Work Regulations. In that document there is no mention of having to have any qualification, of any description, to carry out electrical work of any kind. It just states that you must be competent and have enough knowledge. And the EAWR is the bible as far as we are concerned.

How you would prove competency and knowledge in court without any qualifications is another argument.

Cheers............Howard