240V Bathroom extractor fan in zone 1?

[Toad]

My electrician says he can't sign off the installation in my new loft conversion because the 240V extractor fan is in zone 1 (directly above the shower), and hence violates the Regs. He says the easiest option is to replace it with a 12V one, and locate the transformer remotely.

Disappointed, I phoned Vent Axia and Manrose to find out what 12V fans might be suitable, explaining my predicament. They both said the 240V fan is permitted in zone 1 under the 17th Edition Regs, provided the fan is IPX4 rated (which it is) and also that the circuit is RCD protected (which is it, since I have RCBOs on all circuits).

Please can someone confirm one way or the other. I don't want to embarass the electrician (NICEIC qualified), or myself, so I need to have reliable information on this, but obviously I don't want to change the fan if I don't have to!

 

[microy]

Ask the electrician to show you the regulation.

 

[Geoffsd]

701.55 (v) . ventilation equipment. provided it is suitable for installation in zone 1, according to the manufacturers instructions.

CORRECT.

The answer to the original question is the fan is allowed where it is.

 

[Johnny-G]

Have just accessed the manufacturer's instructions. All it says is that the wiring must comply with current IEE Regs. The fan is Vent-Axia Lo-Carbon dMEV Unit, IPX4 rated, 240V, and located in zone 1. Just to repeat, the cirucit is RCD protected (actually, RCBO in my case).

My original question still stands: can I keep this fan, or must it be replaced with a 12V one to make it satisfy the regs?

Keep it if you want.
It complies with the regulations as long as it's IPX4 or IPX5 if there's a chance of water jets hitting it.
Tell your electrician to check table 8.1 in the OSG.

 

[IQ Electrical]

Have just accessed the manufacturer's instructions. All it says is that the wiring must comply with current IEE Regs. The fan is Vent-Axia Lo-Carbon dMEV Unit, IPX4 rated, 240V, and located in zone 1. Just to repeat, the cirucit is RCD protected (actually, RCBO in my case).

My original question still stands: can I keep this fan, or must it be replaced with a 12V one to make it satisfy the regs?

Toad, on a forum, you get a mixture of fact and opinion.

The facts are that the fan by way of it's IP rating does comply, it's also double insulated and RCD protected so if you want to keep it there, you can.

The opinion is that an inline fan or SELV unit is better but seeing as your fan is fitted and working.....

 

[ezzzekiel]

didnt the elctrician fit the fan? if not whys he signing off someone elses work? if he wont budge and its correctly rated just remove the fan and refit after its signed off or get himm to mention it in the observations that he refused connection.

 

[Geoffsd]

To put Toad's mind at rest:

Ask the electrician in which zone he would fit an electric shower.

 

[Des 56]

My original question still stands: can I keep this fan, or must it be replaced with a 12V one to make it satisfy the regs?

Yes you can and no it doesn't
There thats an answer without advise or preference

Now here is my question
How is an electrician disputing signing off an installation, when the installation certificate is generated by that person, who designed, constructed, and inspected the installation, which as a consequence, he then signs as compliant with the regs on that certificate

 

[Toad]

Toad, on a forum, you get a mixture of fact and opinion.

The facts are that the fan by way of it's IP rating does comply, it's also double insulated and RCD protected so if you want to keep it there, you can.

The opinion is that an inline fan or SELV unit is better but seeing as your fan is fitted and working.....

Thank you IQ Electrical. This is just the kind of response I am looking for. In order to comply with the Regs, either I HAVE to replace the fan, or I DON'T, and at this stage I'm really not interested in opinions about the merits or otherwise of 240V vs 12V, or in-line vs non-in-line, etc. The point is the fan is installed, so either the installation complies, or it does not.

Thanks everyone for your input. I will contact the electrician then let you know what he says!

 

[grimysparks80]

I`m a bit surprised the manufactorers dont mention zones. Seems like they dont want to commit themselves in case anything turns out to be wrong.

 

[Crosswire]

To put Toad's mind at rest:

Ask the electrician in which zone he would fit an electric shower.

Excactly.

 

[electromonkey]

Yes you can and no it doesn't
There thats an answer without advise or preference

Now here is my question
How is an electrician disputing signing off an installation, when the installation certificate is generated by that person, who designed, constructed, and inspected the installation, which as a consequence, he then signs as compliant with the regs on that certificate

Print the above quote off and ask your electrician to read it. Either he replaces the fan at a cost to him or he signs off the work as it stands.

 

[Toad]

didnt the elctrician fit the fan? if not whys he signing off someone elses work? .....

No, the electrician didn't fit the fan, nor did he install most of the electrics. The builder installed the fan. However, the two of them work in unison, and the electrician makes the final connections etc after checking out the builder's work at different stages. In effect, the builder works under the supervision of the electrician. Of course, the electrician is taking full responsibility for signing off the work, but that is his own decision based on years of experience gained from the two of them working together.

In rare instances, as in this case, the electrician has to correct or undo something that the builder did wrongly. But in this case it seems the electrician is wrong. I am the householder, and have a good relationship with both of them, so I am in on their discussions. I was the one that chose the fan, the builder fitted it, and the electrician then came along to sign off everything electrical. He pulled the builder for installing the wrong fan, and says he'll be back when it's been replaced.

 

[Crosswire]

No, the electrician didn't fit the fan, nor did he install most of the electrics. The builder installed the fan. However, the two of them work in unison, and the electrician makes the final connections etc after checking out the builder's work at different stages. In effect, the builder works under the supervision of the electrician. Of course, the electrician is taking full responsibility for signing off the work, but that is his own decision based on years of experience gained from the two of them working together.

In rare instances, as in this case, the electrician has to correct or undo something that the builder did wrongly. I am the householder, and have a good relationship with both of them, so I am in on their discussions. I was the one that chose the fan, the builder fitted it, and the electrician then came along to sign off everything electrical. But the electrician has to revisit since he says, wrongly it seems, that the fan must be replaced. Yes, the additional cost should be bourne by the builder, but only if the builder has made an error in the first place.

:nono:

 

[electromonkey]

No, the electrician didn't fit the fan, nor did he install most of the electrics. The builder installed the fan. However, the two of them work in unison, and the electrician makes the final connections etc after checking out the builder's work at different stages. In effect, the builder works under the supervision of the electrician. Of course, the electrician is taking full responsibility for signing off the work, but that is his own decision based on years of experience gained from the two of them working together.

In rare instances, as in this case, the electrician has to correct or undo something that the builder did wrongly. I am the householder, and have a good relationship with both of them, so I am in on their discussions. I was the one that chose the fan, the builder fitted it, and the electrician then came along to sign off everything electrical. But the electrician has to revisit since he says, wrongly it seems, that the fan must be replaced.

None of that matters. The responsibility lies with the spark who is signing it off.

It would be the same if a customer bought the materials for a job I was on and I used my apprentice or anyone for that matter to install the gear. If it is incorrect, It would be my responsibility to rectify it.

 

[Des 56]

What sometimes happens in situations not a lot different to the one described
A builder takes on a construction job
The householder or the builder says he will do the electrics

End of job, the council then want an Eic, off a part p registered spark, they then get a fool of a spark to come and do an illegal act by signing for an install that he did not construct

 

[telectrix]

ask your electrician this question. " are you going to insist on a 12volt shower, as that's in the same location?"

 

[Toad]

What sometimes happens in situations not a lot different to the one described
A builder takes on a construction job
The householder or the builder says he will do the electrics

End of job, the council then want an Eic, off a part p registered spark, they then get a fool of a spark to come and do an illegal act by signing for an install that he did not construct

This has parallels to an apprentice working for a qualified professional (see Electromonkey's post). Surely nothing wrong with this kind of supervision, when the professional is in a position to correct things before authorising anything?

 

[electromonkey]

Where do you live Toad? We'll all hop in a van and take a look for you. Des and Tel can have a word with your spark for you too concerning his questionable working practices.

 

[Janjua]

I would not install a mains fan in zone-1 in my own bathroom, even if it was Ok by the manufacturer,
he is not the one who will be using the shower, its me i need to protect.
If something went wrong with the IP protection and a shock risk was present,
i would not rely solely on an RCD to protect me from 230V.

I would feel much better with a 12V fan, as this system is a fail Safe configuration.

 

[Geoffsd]

I would not install a mains fan in zone-1 in my own bathroom, even if it was Ok by the manufacturer,
he is not the one who will be using the shower, its me i need to protect.
If something went wrong with the IP protection and a shock risk was present,
i would not rely solely on an RCD to protect me from 230V.

I would feel much better with a 12V fan, as this system is a fail Safe configuration.

Have you got a 12V shower?

 

[brucelee]

zone 1 above bath upto 2.25m IPX4 minimum so if the fan is it complies

zone 0 IPX7 minimum

 

[SimpleSimon]

I would not install a mains fan in zone-1 in my own bathroom, even if it was Ok by the manufacturer,
he is not the one who will be using the shower, its me i need to protect.
If something went wrong with the IP protection and a shock risk was present,
i would not rely solely on an RCD to protect me from 230V.

I would feel much better with a 12V fan, as this system is a fail Safe configuration.

On a fan for the IP rating to fail it would be something obvious anyway so you'd be noticing and replacing with or without RCD. Lol
Its all in the regs so makes no worries IMO. Inline fans are better especially if there's no window inthe bathroom.

 

[topquark]

I`m a bit surprised the manufactorers dont mention zones. Seems like they dont want to commit themselves in case anything turns out to be wrong.

A lot of our accessories are imported. Zones (and their corresponding size rules) are unique to the UK so may not be quoted, the IP rating should always be given as that's an international standard.

 

[sparkdog]

The on site guide lists fixed 230V equipment that may be installed in zone 1.

 

[flukey]

it of a late reply, but electricians guide to the building regs page 62 states,
"a suitable 230v extractor fan may be installed in zones 1 and 2 as well as zone 3 and outside the zones. 30mA rcd protection is required in zone 1. if an extractor fan is installed in zone 1 or 2 it must be protected against the ingress of moisture to at least IPX4"