3 phase or commercial as an NIC domestic installer?

cornburn · Oct 8, 2009

Been doing loads of reading as I'm looking to do a course over the next few weeks. Looking at the 10 day course below

10 Day Electrical Multi Course

it seems very well suited, as they fill in any gaps in knowledge with cable calcs etc in the first 2 days before you start their Part P course and 2382 17th.

It says that after the course you'll be eligible to register with NIC as a domestic installer. The NIC site shows that you can be type A or B, either for defined scope or for full installations. My question is whether or not this would cover doing commercial work on 3 phase boards too? All the work would be similar to domestic in every way and would only ever involve installing new circuits to single phases of the board. I have no interest in getting involved with fire alarms or PIRs at this point and just need to be able to install single circuits or the odd spur most of the time.

I assume a more lengthy course would be needed to register as an approved contractor? I'll continue with my reading now but thought best to ask a bit of advice from those in the know too

drywax · Oct 8, 2009

As I'm led to believe the part p does cover 3 phase but unless the commercial property is powered via the same meter as a domestic property ie flat above a shop same meter powers both, then you can't touch it. Although in my eyes if you can do it as stated whats the difference in the regs that stop you from doing solely the shop.

I can under stand that for bigger commercial units more than a domestic qualification would be perhaps needed. But for a small street shop not supplied by the flat above not to be able to touch it simply for that reason is a bit misleading.

Perhaps in the 18th edition they may classify the size of commercial property you can work on or perhaps the type of supply ?

cornburn · Oct 8, 2009

Thanks for the reply. The work would be in larger premises than small shops above flats, more like office blocks, schools etc. The jobs taken on would still be small enough that a domestic installer would be deemed "competant" though in my eyes, as the supply end stuff in the main electric rooms wouldn't be touched - the only work I'd be interested in would only run as far back as the nearest board.

Maybe it would be ok for now with this work on a domestic installers, then if they ever specify different an update or additional course would be needed. I suppose there's also the issue of whether NIC would come out and inspect you at a commercial premises to put you on the domestic installers list, they might insist on you applying for the approved contractor instead. I'm not really interested in doing domestic work at the moment but if it would cover me for the light commercial work then it would be handy to have just for those occasions when you get asked to look at a problem at someone's house.

peteludman · Oct 9, 2009

commercial and industrial is much harder than domestic i could do domestic in my sleep
you have grouping, volts drop .trunking and a lot of other things to think about like, the phases and which one to use the list is endless and i would say you need to have experiance to.

MikeCDF · Oct 9, 2009

No offence but I would agree with Peteludman - industrial and commercial are much harder installations. Not only form the technical aspect of the regs being more difficult - there are a load of things to consider like cable lengths, even cable types, temperature rises, Earthing, different Earthing (TN-C / TN-C-S / TT ), protection hierarchy of RCD's, many more than 5 or 6 circuits you find in a house, multiple distribution panels etc etc. You're also are usually not messing around with 20-Amp supplies I regularly work on 200 to 300 Amp supplies and that is in offices. In factories I think the largest ampere was 800Amp supply. Mess around with this and you are knocking on those pearly gates.

On the commercial side you really need to understand costing and installation. You cannot keep disappearing for bits and pieces you've forgotten. Also a lot of stuff needs to be ordered specifically so you can't send it back to the supplier. Oh, and there's the insurance you need and I had to prove I was qualified to work on 3-phase installations (apprentice papers, tech. school exams etc) before I could get insurance - Commercial and industrial customers have tough terms of contract and have no hesitation in holding you to them, and there's no walking away if you're not up to it - you get sued!

My advice if you're starting is get properly trained and learn your craft either in employment with a good electrical contractor, or if self employed on smaller high street and residential work.

Good luck with it.

kung · Oct 10, 2009

Agree although its more to do with your competentcies ! you dont need to be a spark to replace a 3ph panel or rewire a com/ind building that said as the other guys said the advice is GET exp on 3ph first ! a suggestion is do some time say a year or so with an AC either self employed or a contracting firm as a freebee in exchange for experience ! after the years up you will be glad you did it and possibly feel longer is required ! better safe than sorry as if you do the work you may get into trouble it may be best to see if you can attend when a spark does the work and seek advice from them ! I have also worked on 3ph domestic id advise working on these first.
Regards
Kung.

scampy · Oct 12, 2009

i've been looking into the same topic, in my secound years as a domestic installer, done a far bit o house bashing and a small amount of commercial with another firm that have taken me under thier wing part time.

my question relates more to the smaller end of ind and comm. i've been asked by a freind with his own factory to swap a copule of existing sockets with 13A fused spures as he's having some new machinery fitted. On the face of it it's very similar to domestic work but i'm not sure if i'm covered or how i register the work, if i even need to?

i've also been asked to re-wire the 'shed' at our local sports park, it's fed from a 3 phase supply via a 32A MCB through SWA, again this is basically domestic work in a commercial premisis.

any help will be usefull.

cornburn · Oct 12, 2009

Thanks for all the very helpful replies people. It seems like I'm thinking down the right lines, as I wouldn't dream of getting involved with industrial work or anything too technical on the commercial side. The work I'm talking about would always be domestic type installations, just in commercial properties. Typical jobs would be single spurs or other minor works, ranging up to small 2 way RCD consumer units to feed new ring circuits (CU fed from nearby 3 phase rewirable fuse board). This would be as technical as things would get for now, nothing more complicated would be taken on.

The examples that Scampy has given above is exactly the sort of thing I'm talking about.

Does anyone know if the NIC would inspect work like this at a commercial premises as part of your domestic installer signing up process? If they would then I'd be happy that this is the right route for now, I could then take more training at a later date if I felt it was the way to go.

peteludman · Oct 13, 2009

YOU can do the work but even running a ring circuit could be harder if i runs with a lot of other circuits it may need to be 4mm not normal 2.5.
but you can do the work stupid but you only need to be regestered for domestic dosent make sense though. cos i can do domestic in my sleep and get board seems like a good idea to do domestic till i have done the first day .

johnnyb · Oct 13, 2009

Your all going on about 3ph and s/ph , and obviously theres more to learn in the 3ph world, but some of you are saying you get v/drop and more regs in the 3ph world, well regs still apply in the s/ph world as well boys and girls, lets get into perspective.
Out of the 2 i agree to me it and always will be better to be trained in the ind/comm sector not only for the more varied work we specialise in, but its far far more interesting as well.

MikeCDF · Oct 14, 2009

Am I covered to do commercial / industrial work? My understanding is that if you only have Part P you are NOT covered commercial and industrial work. It is only intended for tradesmen who are not electricians to carry out small domestic installations and extensions to support other activities they are doing e.g. fitting a gas boiler that needs a spur socket. My understanding is that Part P does not cover you for commercial and industrial work, this is the reason I have not done Part P because I only work in industry. IF you are a qualified electrician and have your BS7671 C&G32832 10/20 then I think you should have the knowledge to work on any low voltage system regardless of Part P. And if you're time served or properly trained then you have the experience as well.

With regard to changing from domestic to industry/commercial it is different. Your approach must be more professional, you have to do the calculations, the risks are higher and the work needs to be properly certified and the customer properly instructed. If you are just "adding 3-pin sockets in the office" or "changing the office lighting" then apart from the normal tests (is existing cable/protection suitable or do I need to change that as well, checking Zs allows correct disconnection time etc etc) then this is not so different from domestic. But, if you're trying to cable up e.g. air handling system, external sodium lighting, 3-phase motors or pumps, factory ventilation etc. then it's a different world even though the same regulations apply.

Don't let me put anyone off though. If you want to do industry its great, interesting and always different