Advice about testing another's work

[Gazthesparky]

Need a bit of advice /opinions

I completed a full rewire a couple of months ago prior to starting the customer said kitchen company was sorting kitchen ring and my contract/quotation stated I was not responsible for this while first fixing kitchen company fitted kitchen and left kitchen ring unconnected as I hadn't fitted new consumer unit. At the time I stated to them they needed to come back and commission

I second fixed left the ring unconnected and put on my EIC that the kitchen ring was installed by another and not responsible

I've now had a call from customer saying kitchen company aren't going to come back and commission and could I they will pay me extra for doing so.

So should I go back and fill out a ECR and connect the circuit ? Or point blank refuse to connect it ? As its not my work and I know the cables have been thrown about under the floor and not clipped

Where do I stand I don't want to be responsible for there work as I didn't install it

 

[uksparks]

Your options are either you connect it and take responsibility for it which would be a bad idea, or you walk away from it and insist the kitchen company connect it.

putting your name to someone else's work is a really bad idea unless you can see every cable throughout its length and it checks out ok.

 

[uksparks]

Sorry, just to add, if you connect it and then issue an EICR, who is taking responsibility? The customer will point a finger at you as YOU connected it and issued incorrect paperwork for connecting it when it should have been an EIC.

 

[PEG]

...Although to be strictly accurate,you would not "just connect it and issue an EICR"...you would perform,an EICR,and on the findings of that,issue a report,and accompany that with any recommendations...

The only reason i mention these points,is that from time to time,i get asked to inspect or test work,completed by certified,schemed and liveried up individuals/companies...find,say,a kinked and stretched T&E,giving the usual intermittent problems...and if the original installer is found,and pressed on the matter,he may say "that must have been the apprentice...i can't inspect every inch..." which is what is alluded to in the OP's post...

These situations are bread and butter everyday occurrences,and ensure that those not phased by the vagaries of others,will never struggle to put food on the table :43:

 

[uksparks]

I think the key to this whole question is that the circuit had not yet been energised, if it had then just do an EICR, but by the fact it's not been energised or connected, the only way forward would be to fully test it and issue an EIC as any other paperwork would be incorrect as you are connecting a new circuit, bit testing or have been asked to sign off a pre connected circuit.

 

[uksparks]

Just to add, in not suggesting connecting it or giving an EIC as its not your work.

 

[Deleted member 9648]

Need a bit of advice /opinions

I completed a full rewire a couple of months ago prior to starting the customer said kitchen company was sorting kitchen ring and my contract/quotation stated I was not responsible for this while first fixing kitchen company fitted kitchen and left kitchen ring unconnected as I hadn't fitted new consumer unit. At the time I stated to them they needed to come back and commission

I second fixed left the ring unconnected and put on my EIC that the kitchen ring was installed by another and not responsible

I've now had a call from customer saying kitchen company aren't going to come back and commission and could I they will pay me extra for doing so.

So should I go back and fill out a ECR and connect the circuit ? Or point blank refuse to connect it ? As its not my work and I know the cables have been thrown about under the floor and not clipped

Where do I stand I don't want to be responsible for there work as I didn't install it

There's your answer. The client must explain to the kitchen fitters that their work comes under part P and at present there is no system in place for third party certification. If the circuit is to be energised they are legally responsible for it's testing,inspection and certification.
I've yet to see electrical work carried out by kitchen fitters that's not a lash up. Don't even think about putting your name to it.

 

[R G]

Am I correct in reading that the op second fixed the circuit in question ?

If thats not the case and had nothing to do with that circuit then its none of your problem , leave for them to finish off their work..

 

[Gazthesparky]

Hi all

Thanks for your input

No I haven't touched their circuit I have even stated on my EIC that my certificate does not cover it.

The kitchen company got funny because there wasn't a consumer unit installed when they were fitting the kitchen and they second fixed it but left the two cables by the new place where the consumer unit was going to go.

My customer has now contacted me to say the can not get the kitchen company to come back and would I connect it up. They are happy to pay extra for this because they know I have stated all along that I have nothing to do with it. I tried to persuade them at the time I was quoting to let me. Do the kitchen but they were adamant that they had already paid the deposit for the kitchen and electrics were included in that.

 

[Richard Burns]

A possible option would be to complete an EIC with only the inspection and testing section signed and pass this to the customer for the kitchen installers to complete design and construction sections.
I would include a note on the EIC that the circuit is completely constructed prior to inspection and testing as certain aspects of inspection will not be possible.
I only offer this as a possibility because it was not possible for the kitchen fitters to fully test the circuit at the time of installation as the Cu was not in place.

 

[DuaneMHunt1976]

I can only see the 3party doing the testing in the kitchen EICR or buildings or Scream at the kitchen fitters to do the job

 

[Andy78]

Hi all

Thanks for your input

No I haven't touched their circuit I have even stated on my EIC that my certificate does not cover it.

The kitchen company got funny because there wasn't a consumer unit installed when they were fitting the kitchen and they second fixed it but left the two cables by the new place where the consumer unit was going to go.

My customer has now contacted me to say the can not get the kitchen company to come back and would I connect it up. They are happy to pay extra for this because they know I have stated all along that I have nothing to do with it. I tried to persuade them at the time I was quoting to let me. Do the kitchen but they were adamant that they had already paid the deposit for the kitchen and electrics were included in that.

Then you should stick to your guns and maintain that you have nothing to do with it. Let the customer sort it out with the installer. Any decent company would just show up and complete the work. If not, then trading standards.

 

[ackbarthestar]

It seems like standard trade to trade banter although the customer appears to have initiated this ambiguity.

Its always expedient to establish the terms of contract before the kick-off (customer-kitchenfitters-electrician)

comes under part P and at present there is no system in place for third party certification.

I was under the impression that electricians can 3rd party expect, test and certify now.

 

[R G]

Then you should stick to your guns and maintain that you have nothing to do with it. Let the customer sort it out with the installer. Any decent company would just show up and complete the work. If not, then trading standards.

Thats how I see it too , must say it makes me suspicious when they don want to test , connect and certify...

 

[telectrix]

i think richard burns' post is the way forward. test it, complete a 3 sig. EIC with only the test/inspection signed, then it's up to the customer to insist that the kitchen co. sign for design and install.

 

[ian.settle1]

i think richard burns' post is the way forward. test it, complete a 3 sig. EIC with only the test/inspection signed, then it's up to the customer to insist that the kitchen co. sign for design and install.

What design if a kitchen company has done it

 

[Gazthesparky]

Well I went back to the customer and said I wasn't prepared to test it. I said it wasn't up to my standard and I am not taking responsibility for someone else's work. I said I would come back and install a whole new circuit and test but they will babe to pay. They said they would chase the kitchen company.

They did however let it slip that they had signed the kitchen company's completion handover paperwork and they have paid the full amount. Muppets

 

[Dizzy_Maskell]

If you are dubious in any way why risk your career livelihood for a small job like connecting up some sockets.
Walk away or even better run !

 

[gnselectricals]

Is their work really that bad or is it just that the cables aren't secured properly.
Just done a 3rd party notification via Napit for my mate as he has de registered from niceic and I know his work is sound.
Did one last month for a carpenter mate as his original spark disappeared to Aus couldn't check all cable runs etc but all tested fine so I personally don't see a problem.
Napit form is a cross between 3 part EIC and a EICR, where the installer details can be added and there is space to add a comment saying that your not fully responsible etc.

 

[Gazthesparky]

Is their work really that bad or is it just that the cables aren't secured properly.
Just done a 3rd party notification via Napit for my mate as he has de registered from niceic and I know his work is sound.
Did one last month for a carpenter mate as his original spark disappeared to Aus couldn't check all cable runs etc but all tested fine so I personally don't see a problem.
Napit form is a cross between 3 part EIC and a EICR, where the installer details can be added and there is space to add a comment saying that your not fully responsible etc.

I'm not registered with any scheme so 3rd party notification is a no go would be good if there was a cross over cert that would do the job

And I don't know the kitchen company who installed it, the t&e not clipped isn't a big issue but this is under a suspended floor where rats could be in the future , the cables are lying on the ground. Non of the sockets were level or in a line so if they couldn't be arsed with that then God knows what corners they have cut

Glad I refused don't want to be be responsible for someone else's work

 

[PEG]

I'm not registered with any scheme so 3rd party notification is a no go would be good if there was a cross over cert that would do the job

And I don't know the kitchen company who installed it, the t&e not clipped isn't a big issue but this is under a suspended floor where rats could be in the future , the cables are lying on the ground. Non of the sockets were level or in a line so if they couldn't be arsed with that then God knows what corners they have cut

Glad I refused don't want to be be responsible for someone else's work

The first gripe sounds like most properties i've ever inspected,from new build to listed....and the second is not exactly true,as you would be responsible for ONLY your inspection and testing.

Many installations test out fine,with few compliance issues,yet are scruffy,badly set-out and show little evidence of craftsmanship...welcome to Broken Britain :winkiss:

 

[Taylortwocities]

I was under the impression that electricians can 3rd party expect, test and certify now.

Not strictly true. The latest Building Regs now allows third party certification schemes. This allowed the various organisations to create the capability for electricians to carry out third party notifications. A person registered with one of the schemes would be able to check domestic electrical work undertaken by installers who are not registered with a Part P competent person self-certification scheme (typically DIY work) and certify that the work is compliant with the Building Regulations.

BUT many of the schemes (NICEIC, ELECSA) have opted out of the Third Party Cert facility on the grounds of safety. Those that do provide for it (NAPIT, STROMA) have created a separate membership option (ie pay more ££) to allow the third party capability.

Another fine mess.

 

[baldelectrician]

The client must explain to the kitchen fitters that their work comes under part P

No Part P in Scotland (thank god)

I had a similar issue on a flat a few years back.
I did a rewire and left the kitchen as was (it was to be done later on and was not done by me, just tested and reconnected to the new consumer unit)

I put the kitchen ring on a 20A radial (as I did not know if there were any spurs off spurs etc, although no strange test results happened).

This was an exisiting circuit on a old flat.

I may have connected it if the tests were OK, but added it as an exception on the EIC. Any doubt and it would have been left.

If the kitchen company a member of SELECT / NICIEC - the customer may have some recourse there?

 

[DuaneMHunt1976]

Part p isn't in Wales ever (I was told and asked Welsh government department, unless I read it wrong... Again)

 

[Taylortwocities]

Part p isn't in Wales ever (I was told and asked Welsh government department, unless I read it wrong... Again)

You were lied to. Part P is very much a regulation in England AND Wales. In fact the notification requirements in Wales are different (more requirements)

Oh look, here's information on a Welsh Government web site :smartass:
Welsh Government | Part P (Electrical safety)
or did you want it in a foreign language?
Llywodraeth Cymru | Rhan P (Electrical safety)