AFDDs are a massive fraud

[Cookie]

Derailed another thread with AFDDs, so I am starting this one. I will simply say that UK RCDs and MCBs provide arc fault protection as is. UL not only knows that, but extensively researched UK power systems in an effort to emulate the very same concept 40 years. One the simply fact (growing concern) that the US National Electrical Code does not prohibit a maximum earth fault loop impedance.

 

[Sisyphus]

From an on the ground engineering point of view how exactly do you fault find the cause of an AFDD tripping especially if it is a nuisance trip with no test equipment available to verify the operation of the unit, does an AFDD's ability to detect a fault degrade over time or if it detects a fault does that reduce it's future efficacy or do you just replace it, there seems to be so many unknowns and unanswered issues with this new piece of kit you have to wonder why the IET have jumped in feet first on this one

AFDD nuisance trip inquiries are a daily affair @ NEC chatrooms

All manner of conjecture are usually entertained.

There are 'testers' marketed by the same manufacturers of them , but simply looking for something parallel Vs series usually reveals the problem

That our system incorporates a neutral makes this all the more tedious

&&&&>>

Our AFDD's state right in the manufactured instructions to remove them prior to any megging

Which over time mother nature may introduce.

So what we installed 20 yrs ago may 'test' as far as the unit's test button , but there is (as yet) no lockout feature UL mandated for our GFCI's , over 50% (their studies) confirmed

~S~

 

[DPG]

Sorry, mother nature may introduce what?

Some of your posts are confusing.

 

[Bobster]

Our AFDD's state right in the manufactured instructions to remove them prior to any megging

Which over time mother nature may introduce.

I think you need to understand how an insulation tester works and the difference between that and lightning/surge voltage.

 

[Cookie]

The land of the free and the brave, no more then?

We all know America is smoke and mirrors.

People who believe peace can be kept through violence, the constitution protected by violating it and the oath sworn to uphold it, people freed by being enslaved, helping others by pushing them back down, depriving information is the key to education, ect.


Yet somehow AFCIs should not be view with skepticism.

 

[static zap]

(If its OK to ask from your practical experiences,
have you spotted any of the following )
Returning to false alarms .
a) Are any brands better than others .
Do location factors provide any clues
b) Are cities / situations more prone ie near TV
Taxi , radio ham ,airport radar ?
c) Problems near car workshops / industrial welding.
Does the age of the install influence things?
d) Sturdy but worn older sockets
e) New flimsy parts of certain brands

 

[Sisyphus]

Sorry, mother nature may introduce what?

Some of your posts are confusing.

mea cuppa

spikes, swells, sags, etc....

I think you need to understand how an insulation tester works and the difference between that and lightning/surge voltage.

Yes there's a dif Rob

~S~

 

[Sisyphus]

The land of the free and the brave, no more then?

~S~

 

[Sisyphus]

(If its OK to ask from your practical experiences,
have you spotted any of the following )
Returning to false alarms .

[quote/]
a) Are any brands better than others .
Do location factors provide any clues

GE (good enough!)

http://apps.geindustrial.com/publibrary/checkout/DEA-635?TNR=Brochures%7CDEA-635%7CPDF&filename=DEA-635.PDF

b) Are cities / situations more prone ie near TV
Taxi , radio ham ,airport radar ?

I wouldn't know, i live way out

) Problems near car workshops / industrial welding.
Does the age of the install influence things?


d) Sturdy but worn older sockets


e) New flimsy parts of certain brands

I really should post some of our wiring to answer this for you, but yes, yes & yes

~S~

 

[DPG]

Thanks for your last three posts Sisyphus, they were most informative. I'm sure we all learned a lot from the technical detail. They go well with the ropey YouTube videos posted by your friend previously.

 

[stevethesparks]

From an on the ground engineering point of view how exactly do you fault find the cause of an AFDD tripping especially if it is a nuisance trip with no test equipment available to verify the operation of the unit, does an AFDD's ability to detect a fault degrade over time or if it detects a fault does that reduce it's future efficacy or do you just replace it, there seems to be so many unknowns and unanswered issues with this new piece of kit you have to wonder why the IET have jumped in feet first on this one

When working in the security industry, Racal had a pir that a device could be plugged onto its test pins showing +/- noise/activity in its area of coverage.
No doubt this opportunity will be missed, but I see no reason why a similar set-up could not be introduced as an industry standard with AFDD's.

Whether a separate instrument (that works universally with all makes), or an output that would work with a simple multi-meter, would at least give sparky's half a chance of fault finding with these devices.

 

[The Ghost]

For that matter arcing gives out radio frequencies, just get a "listener" that picks them up and alarm sounds and remote switch??? something like that anyway. Beleive it or not @Sisyphus I looked at those videos and while I told @Cookie not to tell us there are bad men out there and AFDD are bad I didn't tell you so you get a pass on that one.
I can only conclude with a strategy. If you face a giant you don't go for its head you go for its feet. What is the feet of corporation I hear you ask...why it is the consumer. Therefore it would behove us to inform the consumer that AFDD have some questions that need answering before we feel confident enough to recommend them. If all the electricians did this and left the decision up to the consumer we could write on the certificate the client declined the AFDD offered. As well we could ensure that we price them unattractively, say £200 an AFDD. Given that we would need to fit one on every circuit that would add several hundred pounds to the cost of a consumer power distribution unit. As I retire next year (God willing!) I have little to lose in informing consumer associations as well. I reckon the above would effectively throw a spanner in the works, no?

 

[The Ghost]

mea maxima culpa

 

[DPG]

I'd sooner have a cuppa though Vort.

 

[static zap]

For that matter arcing gives out radio frequencies, just get a "listener" that picks them up and alarm sounds and remote switch??? something like that ....

a) I'm wondering if things have moved over in the "sticks" with good mobile phone coverage .
b) Or if Truckers still use CBs and big-dirty "linears-Boots-Power/Amps"
c) (We have a post elsewhere Higher power PMR radios upsetting RCDs.. close UP -Inv-cube-law (volume-signal has to fill))

 

[The Ghost]

Anyway according to the videos @Sisyphus posted arcing is not the problem, glowing connections are. It would seem arcing is not the problem at all. The guys seem to be credible witnesses and amply qualified although I have not researched and confirmed that.