AFDDs are a massive fraud

[Cookie]

Derailed another thread with AFDDs, so I am starting this one. I will simply say that UK RCDs and MCBs provide arc fault protection as is. UL not only knows that, but extensively researched UK power systems in an effort to emulate the very same concept 40 years. One the simply fact (growing concern) that the US National Electrical Code does not prohibit a maximum earth fault loop impedance.

 

[Devonchris]

you were right the first time. .

I shall treat that comment as irony.

 

[Cookie]

The Brits have long complained that many Americans don't get irony (for instance, we published a telling story from a British expat last week, and then there was the time the editor of Business Insider UK griped on Twitter about his literal American editors).
Well, there's a reason we don't get irony, and it's not because we're daft.

the British, despite being more low-context than many cultures, are far more high-context than the Americans. Thus they will often say things with implicit meanings that are contrary to their literal meanings — aka irony — that go right over American heads.

Here's The Real Reason Americans Don't Get Irony

There's a very good historical reason.

www.businessinsider.com

Nothing personal, it's just me. I'm retarded, and am only here for the humour

What did I miss?

 

[telectrix]

What did I miss?

MOST OF ww1 AND 1/2 OF ww2 ,

 

[Devonchris]

What did I miss?

My comments about firefighters was not supposed to be taken seriously. Then you come along and start to give my comments credibility, which would never do. So I needed to point out the irony and the fact that you "don't get it".

On balance I decided it was better to upset one American than the whole of the British Fire Service.

 

[Pete999]

My comments about firefighters was not supposed to be taken seriously. Then you come along and start to give my comments credibility, which would never do. So I needed to point out the irony and the fact that you "don't get it".

On balance I decided it was better to upset one American than the whole of the British Fire Service.

Agree, don't take much to upset the Yanks, just tell em their electrics are carp, that usually gets their dander up, invasion will follow, internment of UK Sparks accused of blasphemy etc. Drone strikes on the IET HQ, Mass burning of the BS 7671.

 

[Cookie]

Agree, don't take much to upset the Yanks, just tell em their electrics are carp, that usually gets their dander up, invasion will follow, internment of UK Sparks accused of blasphemy etc. Drone strikes on the IET HQ, Mass burning of the BS 7671.

Some of it I can understand. But why take AFDDs with such open arms? Why question the messenger? AFDDs are to "fix" the lack of loop impedance in the states.

 

[telectrix]

Some of it I can understand. But why take AFDDs with such open arms? Why question the messenger? AFDDs are to "fix" the lack of loop impedance in the states.

then fix the lack of loop impedance testing. cure the disease, not the symptoms.

 

[Pete999]

Some of it I can understand. But why take AFDDs with such open arms? Why question the messenger? AFDDs are to "fix" the lack of loop impedance in the states.

There was I recalling that you reckoned RCDs and CBs detected Arc faults.

 

[Devonchris]

Hi cookie

Sorry for diverting your thread a little.

You have raised some interesting points, and I, for one, would be interested to know why we Have welcomed them with open arms and by who, and was the science behind it known to them. Or did they simply believe the manufactures?

But first off, it would help to know why you have taken up this cause, what your involvement is, and what your experience is to enable you to make these claims. Whilst ever you avoid these matters, then your credibility here is no better than mine. So come on, open up a bit so we know you are genuine.

 

[Deleted member 26818]

Hi cookie

Sorry for diverting your thread a little.

You have raised some interesting points, and I, for one, would be interested to know why we Have welcomed them with open arms and by who, and was the science behind it known to them. Or did they simply believe the manufactures?

But first off, it would help to know why you have taken up this cause, what your involvement is, and what your experience is to enable you to make these claims. Whilst ever you avoid these matters, then your credibility here is no better than mine. So come on, open up a bit so we know you are genuine.

On the one hand, you say the poster has raised interesting points, on the other, you want to know more about the poster before you assign any credibility to the interesting points?

 

[Pete999]

Well you live somewher, presumably?

On a higher plane may be?

 

[telectrix]

On a higher plane may be?

would that be "Hun in the Sun"?

 

[The Ghost]

Having thought about this I don't buy the idea that RCDs' can act as AFD devices. Thinking of the construction of an RCD it is a toroidal coil set up to sense an imbalance between L-N so the sum in will equal the sum out to simplify it. Arcing between L-N or L-L would not be picked up by an RCD from what I understand. The evidence presented by the OP has too many variables in it to conclusively agree with the findings presented. In effect he is saying that the introduction of AFCI devices is the fraud on top of GFCI already existent? An arc is surely a fault/short of negligible impedance which will cause thermal and em effects which is catered for by an common or garden MCB. And then the RCD comes in as a distinctly different function i.e. as "additional protection" the fact it may trip in an arc situation I believe is accidental/incidental and would not be relied on as arc detection and may even be dangerous to do so.

 

[Bobster]

Having thought about this I don't buy the idea that RCDs' can act as AFD devices. Thinking of the construction of an RCD it is a toroidal coil set up to sense an imbalance between L-N so the sum in will equal the sum out to simplify it. Arcing between L-N or L-L would not be picked up by an RCD from what I understand. The evidence presented by the OP has too many variables in it to conclusively agree with the findings presented. In effect he is saying that the introduction of AFCI devices is the fraud on top of GFCI already existent? An arc is surely a fault/short of negligible impedance which will cause thermal and em effects which is catered for by an common or garden MCB. And then the RCD comes in as a distinctly different function i.e. as "additional protection" the fact it may trip in an arc situation I believe is accidental/incidental and would not be relied on as arc detection and may even be dangerous to do so.

I agree.

RCDs, and MCBs do not operate in the same manner as an AFDD. Their sensing mechanisms are different. Yes both an MCB and RCD can detect an arc (If the magnitude is big enough/ it is from L>E).

Partially correct that they are introduced in the US due to loop impedance. However, and i guess this is hand in hand with EFLI. In the US portable appliances are not protected like the ones in the UK, they don't generally have fused outlets/plugs. As such the appliance wiring normally isn't enough to deal with the fault current necessary to trip the thermal strip in an MCB. Hence, fire.

 

[DPG]

Go ahead, treat yourself.