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A

adzberry

My employer is trying to persuade the apprentice to start doing DEICR's on his own as he has "watched me doing them for ages" where does the law stand on this?

And to answer any questions - this is one of many reasons I start with a new company in 2 weeks
 
My misuse of English, I am new to this country.
I mean to say, At least he should be allowed to I&T under supervision! But don't sign his name to it.

How many people have been done recently for electrical work of any nature?

You stand more chance of being prosecuted for waving a sunflower at a copper!!!!!!
 
My misuse of English, I am new to this country.
I mean to say, At least he should be allowed to I&T under supervision! But don't sign his name to it.

How many people have been done recently for electrical work of any nature?

You stand more chance of being prosecuted for waving a sunflower at a copper!!!!!!

Absolutely NOT!! ...He should be learning from the mentor electrician, not Doing, at this stage of his training!! What's that got to do with it, that[s for the legal authorities to decide. Were talking about an apprentice that wouldn't know much about anything, let alone testing circuits. As for that last sentence of yours, .... ''but don't sign his name to it'' That scares the hell out of me, if that's what's going on with apprentices out in the field, with just a few months on the job!!
 
At least he should be allowed to I&T under supervision!


Absolutely NOT!! ...He should be learning from the mentor electrician, not Doing, at this stage of his training!! What's that got to do with it, that[s for the legal authorities to decide. Were talking about an apprentice that wouldn't know much about anything, let alone testing circuits. As for that last sentence of yours, .... ''but don't sign his name to it'' That scares the hell out of me, if that's what's going on with apprentices out in the field, with just a few months on the job!!

Do you understand the meaning of the word 'supervision'?!

How the hell is a novice going to learn? Obviously having observed his mentor beforehand!

As for the legal side of all this, I couldn't care less, no one else does.
 
There are no absolute restrictions on working alone; it will depend on the findings of a risk assessment.

There are two main pieces of legislation that will apply:
The Health and Safety at Work Act 1974: Section 2 sets out a duty of care on employers to ensure the health, safety and welfare of their employees whilst they are at work.

The Management of Health and Safety at work Regulations 1999: Regulation 3 states that every employer shall make a suitable and sufficient assessment of -

  • the risks to the health and safety of his employees to which they are exposed whilst they are at work; and
  • the risks to the health and safety of persons not in his employment arising out of or in connection with the conduct by him of his undertaking.
Although there is no general legal prohibition on working alone, the broad duties of the HSWA and MHSWR still apply. These require identifying hazards of the work, assessing the risks involved, and putting measures in place to avoid or control the risks.

Control measures may include instruction, training, supervision, protective equipment etc. Employers should take steps to check that control measures are used and review the risk assessment from time to time to ensure it is still adequate.
When risk assessment shows that it is not possible for the work to be done safely by a lone worker, arrangements for providing help or back-up should be put in place. Where a lone worker is working at another employer's workplace, that employer should inform the lone worker's employer of any risks and the control measures that should be taken. This helps the lone worker's employer to assess the risks.

Risk assessment should help decide the right level of supervision. There are some high-risk activities where at least one other person may need to be present. Examples include some high-risk confined space working where a supervisor may need to be present, as well as someone dedicated to the rescue role, and electrical work at or near exposed live conductors where at least two people are sometimes required.
As HSE considers, not unreasonably, that live testing is live working as defined in the Electricity at Work Regulations:1989, and specifically Regulation 14 is applicable in all cases. It is therefore likely that in the event of an accident they would argue in court that an apprentice live testing or otherwise working live should be supervised at all times.

Lone workers should not be at more risk than other employees. This may require extra risk-control measures. Precautions should take account of normal work and foreseeable emergencies, e.g. fire, equipment failure, illness and accidents.

Employers should identify situations where people work alone and ask questions such as:


  • Does the workplace present a special risk to the lone worker?
  • Is there a safe way in and a way out for one person? Can any temporary access equipment which is necessary, such as portable ladders or trestles, be safely handled by one person?
  • Can all the plant, substances and goods involved in the work be safely handled by one person? Consider whether the work involves lifting objects too large for one person or whether more than one person is needed to operate essential controls for the safe running of equipment.
  • Is there a risk of violence?
  • Are women especially at risk if they work alone?
  • Are young workers especially at risk if they work alone?
  • Is the person medically fit and suitable to work alone?
  • What happens if the person becomes ill, or has an accident or there is an emergency?
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Do you understand the meaning of the word 'supervision'?!

How the hell is a novice going to learn? Obviously having observed his mentor beforehand!

As for the legal side of all this, I couldn't care less, no one else does.

Supervision seems to mean many things these days!! If your talking about letting an apprentice have a go at IR tests and the like, while your physically looking over him fine!! But at just a few months into his apprenticeship, he should be concentrating on other things rather than installation testing!! It's all so easy to push an apprentice beyond his capabilities, or in too many directions and think that he understands what he's doing. Step by step is the order of the day, and at just a few months into an apprentices training, testing shouldn't be one of them!! Watching you or his mentor, and asking questions and receiving structured answers is!!
 
i'd wait until the apprentice was covering testing theory at college ( usually the last year )
before giving him practical experience of testing , that way he'll have a better understanding of what hes doing and can relate to the principles involved.
 
There are no absolute restrictions on working alone; it will depend on the findings of a risk assessment.

There are two main pieces of legislation that will apply:
The Health and Safety at Work Act 1974: Section 2 sets out a duty of care on employers to ensure the health, safety and welfare of their employees whilst they are at work.

The Management of Health and Safety at work Regulations 1999: Regulation 3 states that every employer shall make a suitable and sufficient assessment of -

  • the risks to the health and safety of his employees to which they are exposed whilst they are at work; and
  • the risks to the health and safety of persons not in his employment arising out of or in connection with the conduct by him of his undertaking.
Although there is no general legal prohibition on working alone, the broad duties of the HSWA and MHSWR still apply. These require identifying hazards of the work, assessing the risks involved, and putting measures in place to avoid or control the risks.

Control measures may include instruction, training, supervision, protective equipment etc. Employers should take steps to check that control measures are used and review the risk assessment from time to time to ensure it is still adequate.
When risk assessment shows that it is not possible for the work to be done safely by a lone worker, arrangements for providing help or back-up should be put in place. Where a lone worker is working at another employer's workplace, that employer should inform the lone worker's employer of any risks and the control measures that should be taken. This helps the lone worker's employer to assess the risks.

Risk assessment should help decide the right level of supervision. There are some high-risk activities where at least one other person may need to be present. Examples include some high-risk confined space working where a supervisor may need to be present, as well as someone dedicated to the rescue role, and electrical work at or near exposed live conductors where at least two people are sometimes required.
As HSE considers, not unreasonably, that live testing is live working as defined in the Electricity at Work Regulations:1989, and specifically Regulation 14 is applicable in all cases. It is therefore likely that in the event of an accident they would argue in court that an apprentice live testing or otherwise working live should be supervised at all times.

Lone workers should not be at more risk than other employees. This may require extra risk-control measures. Precautions should take account of normal work and foreseeable emergencies, e.g. fire, equipment failure, illness and accidents.

Employers should identify situations where people work alone and ask questions such as:


  • Does the workplace present a special risk to the lone worker?
  • Is there a safe way in and a way out for one person? Can any temporary access equipment which is necessary, such as portable ladders or trestles, be safely handled by one person?
  • Can all the plant, substances and goods involved in the work be safely handled by one person? Consider whether the work involves lifting objects too large for one person or whether more than one person is needed to operate essential controls for the safe running of equipment.
  • Is there a risk of violence?
  • Are women especially at risk if they work alone?
  • Are young workers especially at risk if they work alone?
  • Is the person medically fit and suitable to work alone?
  • What happens if the person becomes ill, or has an accident or there is an emergency?

How about using good old ''commonsense''!! Does everyone in the UK now totally rely on a H&S book that has more crap in print than any other publication i've ever read!! Fundamental safety should be second nature to anyone working within this and other industries. It is also taught as part of C&G course work... lol!!
 
How about using good old ''commonsense''!! Does everyone in the UK now totally rely on a H&S book that has more crap in print than any other publication i've ever read!! Fundamental safety should be second nature to anyone working within this and other industries. It is also taught as part of C&G course work... lol!!

Nope, i for one would rather a colleague with common sense built in than a H&S book stuck in his back pocket.

Do it the old way.

As for testing, my apprentices have always tested installations and existing systems but with me standing at their shoulder watching, giving pointers and more importantly discussing WHAT they are testing.

I can teach a monkey to test and certify a new install and for that matter many PIRs. Teaching them what they are testing and why they are doing it is the key to producing balanced electricians who understand what they are doing, not just painting by numbers as it were.
 
and to add further , his inspection training should start with initial testing of his own work , which is usually fairl straight forward.
Periodics require of much deeper level of knowledge so hes nowhere near ready as a 1st year trainee.
 
i'd wait until the apprentice was covering testing theory at college ( usually the last year )
before giving him practical experience of testing , that way he'll have a better understanding of what hes doing and can relate to the principles involved.

Now that is a sensible outlook!!

Nothing to stop you explaining things to him, or letting him have a go, when your job/work for the day is going to be all testing. But without the theory to fully understand what's going on and why, he'll not take much in!! lol!!


Hey, ...Biff your having another sensible episode, ...cut it out!! lol!!:20::cyclist:
 
Thanks for everyone's responses! I've let him test with me. With me looking over his shoulder explaining what he's testing and why and what readings are acceptable etc etc and I think that's why my boss thinks he's ready to do it on his own but nevermind not my problem in a few weeks! And I've told my apprentice that I'm always on the end of the phone if he needs anything as I know he won't get much help anywhere else
 

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