Alternative [solar] suppy

[d1scv]

Been asked by a client to carry out a full rewire on a bungalow.
The rub? - To make provision for a secondary supply, via solar panels, invertor etc, to power lighting and a couple of 5amp socket outlets- to click in if battery conditions are good.
Have now got a design in my head. But for the life of me, I cannot see any benefit- even if he lives to be 100 years older.
Have tried to talk this through with the client. But he's adamant. Green issues and in case of war!

I would really value any- any- views on this.
The main problem here is that the guy is a civil engineer, and he's been sitting in on meetings where they sell this cr*p to each other. And no one has the guts to tell it as it is- waste of time in UK

 

[wattsup]

Solar panels in the UK cannot provide electrical energy (reletive speaking cost wise) Indeed it's doubtful in any domestic situation no matter how warm the climate in any country. They do however; can sometimes supply 'warm water' in the UK. Some 'greenies' use them to heat their indoor swimming pools!
I know from experience it is hard to convince an out and out greenie they are wasting money and resourses.

I would suggest you explain the maths, price from utility company kwh, against cost solar panel. Do the maths, explain, in actual fact the power station supplying his normal power is more efficient than the solar panel, given manufacturing costs of the panel, both in monetary terms and co2 terms.

Added, additional install costs and transport to site. It will not add up, he his ******* in the wind massively. If he his a councillor and looking for votes he won't listen.

btw, the same can be said for domestic wind turbines, a big con

 

[Tester Steve]

Remember, the customer is always right! Take the work and put it in!

Steve.

 

[Banguwangi]

It is not quite true that a PV installation is uneconomic......especially with the new feed in tarrif. I would point out to your customer that if he wants to claim grants or the higher feed-in tarrif he needs to use an accredited installer.

 

[saveloy]

If you need a feed in tarriff or grant to make a Pv system economic then on its own its......... err ...........uneconomic.

Quite why our skint Govt is hell bent on subsidising this rubbish is beyond me. The only reason I can fathom is that they have not invested one penny in building new power stations. They now realise that soon, as our old power stations pack up, this country will be plunged into darkness.....unless we all have our own micro generation systems installed. Genius.

 

[Banguwangi]

I install these systems, at the moment for an average system payback is around 8 years falling all the time....as fuel prices rise they will become more and more economic. It;s true they are expensive but i'm not sure why you are so strongly against. Certainly the rest of europe thinks they are a valid way to go.

 

[saveloy]

I install these systems, at the moment for an average system payback is around 8 years falling all the time....as fuel prices rise they will become more and more economic. It;s true they are expensive but i'm not sure why you are so strongly against. Certainly the rest of europe thinks they are a valid way to go.

8 years payback and falling is a very optomistic IMO. Although this article is over a year old the RICS say that it will on average take upto 100 years to acheive payback for a solar PV system

Solar panels 'take 100 years to pay back installation costs' - Climate Change, Environment - The Independent

This article from 3 days states that the payback will reduce from 50 years down to 15 BUT only because of the new Govt feed in tarrifs
H&V News - Heating and Ventilating News - Solar panel payback to be slashed from 50 to 15 years

So even with the Govt paying householders to generate their own electricity it will take 15 years to recoup the initial investment. That is assuming the householder remains living in the same house. If you want to move then the system will be a negative investment.

The fact that the Govt has to offer financial incentives to encourage homeowners to install PV speaks volumes. If it were such a great investment then people would be falling over themselves to install them without the need to pay them to do so.

 

[Markc]

IMHO I think that RICs are talking bull. Now yes I agree without the new FiTs tariffs then a grid connected PV system wouldn’t be economic and a pay back would be beyond the original client however with FiTs and export tariffs as well as supporting the properties energy consumption then there is a pay back and dependant on system, location and design then 8 years is achievable. Under the Kyoto agreement we are committed to CO2 reduction and hence the development of microgeneration technologies and government schemes. I agree we are behind other European countries like Germany who are now hitting 60% and we haven’t reached our agree 5% by the end of 2009 but it is getting there. I’ve designed several systems recently and with FiTs, Export tariffs and saved purchase of electricity through self generation then it works. The installation cost is coming down as the product cost does so and with energy cost expected to raise then it becomes more appealing. To dismiss PV in its entirety suggests little or no experience or knowledge on the subject and solely reliant on none objective views from a newspaper. The Telegraph had an article the other weekend on PV and it showed figures supporting a 2.5Kw system.

 

[d1scv]

Many thanks for all the replies.
Now- could anyone put the whole lot into something a 60 year old hands on sparks might understand!
My view at present- all this green stuff is bol***ks, with respect.

 

[wattsup]

The grid is crumbling, the government knows it it is. The low energy lamp introduction is another example. The government must reduce load by whatever means they can.
Solar panels for domestic use cannot provide any worthwhile electrical energy, the sums do not add up.
They can sometimes provide warm water and thats all, in the UK even then its not really economical.

The exact same for domestic 'windmills' cannot 'pay for themselves' in ' n' years. Because it is not possible to say how windy it will be next year. By their own figures based on an average wind speed over the course of year manufacturers are claiming 10 - 15 year pay-back time, what they fail to mention is maintainence over the years which could be very expensive, a broken rotor or shot bearing...etc.

And suppose you have 5k - 10k to spare? put in a high interest account for 15 years, in 15 years see what the weather is like -

Hey Markc, can you point me to the article that says 2.5kW is achievable. I can't find it, if its lost in cyber space can you remember how it works, are there battery banks?
How does it work at night, or winter or cloudy days..

 

[saveloy]

The grid is crumbling, the government knows it it is. The low energy lamp introduction is another example. The government must reduce load by whatever means they can.
Solar panels for domestic use cannot provide any worthwhile electrical energy, the sums do not add up.
They can sometimes provide warm water and thats all, in the UK even then its not really economical.

The exact same for domestic 'windmills' cannot 'pay for themselves' in ' n' years. Because it is not possible to say how windy it will be next year. By their own figures based on an average wind speed over the course of year manufacturers are claiming 10 - 15 year pay-back time, what they fail to mention is maintainence over the years which could be very expensive, a broken rotor or shot bearing...etc.

And suppose you have 5k - 10k to spare? put in a high interest account for 15 years, in 15 years see what the weather is like -

Good post. This country is facing a serious energy crisis as a result of non investment.
Fwiw I am genuinely interested in renewable energy technologies, but I just feel that solar Pv systems are unviable. The average joe with £10k to spare these days is very far and few between. And if they have those funds they are not going to want to spend it on solar Pv, with a return of £150- £200 a year.
My problem with the feed in tarriffs and grants are that everyone else ends up paying for them .The money has to come from somewhere!

 

[wattsup]

I can’t go into solar panels because its generally accepted sp’s cannot supply worthwhile electricity on the domestic level, you needn’t be a physicist to understand why. There is no data available for domestic usage in the UK for generating electrical energy.

But understanding the costs and payback can easily be explained using the much more ‘efficient’ wind turbines.

A common wind turbine that is affordable for average joe bloggs would supply 1000w, that would be the sales pitch.

The cost of installing such a system would cost £5000 - £8000.

So lets take the average of £6500.

One kWh cost 0.14 on average from the utility company. At optimum wind speed for the turbine to be at maximum efficiency, the turbine will produce 1kw.

So to produce £6500 worth of electricity, the turbine will need to run at max efficiency for 46430 hours, or 1934 days, or 5.3 years.

Not bad!

Except the wind doesn’t blow all the time, even in ‘best areas’ efficiency is only 20%

So 15 + years to get your money back. And only if you live in a ‘good area’. No doubt utility prices will rise but no maintenance costs have been added, so that may go someway to even things up.

I remember going to court a few years ago, and the judge asked me ‘why have you failed to pay for the new double glazing installed in your house?’

‘Sir’ I said, ‘the salesman told me they would pay for themselves in 5 years’

 

[Markc]

Hey Wattsup. I will try and disprove the myth!

Grid connected systems no need for batteries as the inverter simple converts directly to 230V or 3 x 230V for three phase systems.
Generate at night! Your going to think I’m taking the urine but yes some can. There is a new panel which should be launched later this year that can generate from moonlight. Off hand I can’t remember who is developing it but I think it was either Sharp or BP Solar. My panels according to my inverter has generated on a full moon clear night but the output was next to nothing but still it’s generating.

PV out smarts wind hands down. One of our larger turbines we connected was an 11KVA three phase turbine on a 18mt tower in Norfolk. £34K it cost and the company who supplied said it would pay back in 8 Years! Now you are exactly right in you earlier post in saying that there is no guarantee on wind blowing and I would say the turbine 8 time out of 10 I’ve been back is not going. The client gets 9p per ROC and a ROC is just about 1Kwh. However the turbine will turn at night if windy.

Back to PV

Panels will generate in daylight not just direct sunlight. I agree at a lower rate but still generating. On a rainy day, cloudy day and snow (once the snow has cleared from the panel) I got one of my best days since November a few weeks ago when we had snow and then a clear sunny day and when I checked the Sunny beam meter and recorded the result is was even on par with a day last June. My system is only three panels and was for our MCS inspection so it isn’t going to run the house but it is putting something in and so reducing my electric bill and from April will earn me 41.3p per Kwh generated no mater if I use it in my house or sell it back to the grid. On grid connected there are two design factors to consider and neither are to do with how much electricity the property needs. First is how much money the client is willing to invest and the second is how big is the roof to fit the panel to or ground mount space available. Rule of thumb on area is 10sq mt per 1Kw.

A 2.5Kw system with FiTs, export tariff and saving on electric bill will be around £1000 per year average. No one can guarantee that as weather factors come in to play but it’s a fairly good guide. The other thing to consider is the added value to the property. It has been reported that it could add approximately 10% to the value so if you have a £200,000 home then for a 4Kw system it’s broken even the day its fitted to the roof. PV give a return to value rate of 7 to 9% depending and I’d like to see you get that from a bank at the minute!

If you are considering fitting PV to your roof and getting your electric supply taken out then No its not going to work. Cost of batteries to run your home would be astronomical but if you look at PV as a way of reducing bills then there is the pay back.

That article is as follows. I use it in our sales folders so have a copy. I have not edited it in any way and was taken direct form the paper.

Householders will soon be able to enjoy tax-free returns above 8pc, add to the value of their property and do their bit to help the planet.
Perhaps it was inevitable that Britain would experience the coldest winter in decades as political bigwigs returned from the Copenhagen summit on global warming. But, despite falling temperatures and rising scepticism, it seems householders will soon be able help the environment and gain electrifying returns.
You can do so by installing solar panels, following new Feed-in-Tariffs (FiT) announced by Ed Miliband, the Energy and Climate Change Secretary. From April 1, households which double up as green electricty stations will be paid 41.3p per kilowatt hour (kWh) for the juice they generate.
Britain’s rotten weather is, apparently, not a problem for new types of photovoltaic (PV) solar panels – but you will need plenty of space on a flat roof and a chunk of spare capital. A typical 2.5 kWh system tends to take up about 10 feet by 10 feet and costs about £12,500.
However, the Department of Energy and Climate Change reckons this kit should produce about 2,125 kWh per year and total returns – including reduced electricity bills for the DIY domestic generators – of about £1,050 per year. That’s a yield of 8.4pc. Total returns could exceed that because the presence of a profit centre where only pigeons roost on other people’s property should boost house prices for the new DIY electricity generators.
Potential pitfalls include planning consent – although that’s unlikely to be a problem if you do not live in a conservation area and the panels are out of sight - plus the political risk that a future government may remove its sponsorship from this scheme. But, for now, it appears that ethical investors can gain electrifying returns and do well by doing good.

The technology is ever improving and a 40% efficiency rated panel is only 12 to 18 months away so yields will be even higher. It’s a cleaner energy, no moving parts so no maintenance, Self cleaning glass so the wife hasn’t got to get up on our roof to clean them…….(I may tell her that at some time!) No annual costs. Panels are rated for 25 years for efficiency but that’s not to say they fail. To me PV is a proven technology and will be getting ever better. As for the RICs well I can’t say I agree. 100 years to pay back is outrageous and they just don’t have a clue what they are talking about.

I possibly haven’t convinced you but if you know of a system near you and you get opportunity to have a look at it close up and talk to the client please do so. You may be surprised.

 

[Smugley]

Debate is indeed hotting up. I have to say that althought I agree, Mark, the idea of the high feed-in tariff bothers me. George Monbiot is a loud voice of opposition and I have to say, he has some valid points to make. Are we really going to let ourselves be duped into this solar panel rip-off? | George Monbiot | Comment is free | The Guardian

 

[bugsy]

If you purchase a photovolatic system all the contol gear comes with it, basically you wire it into the clients C.U.
There is i belive a guide available one the bre website

While your at it flog him a voltage optimiser