Anyone know how this is removed?

[Raptor0014]

I need to replace a normal isolator with a switched fused isolator.

However the meter has some form of shroud between it and the cutout that I can’t see any way of removing without damaging it.

Anyone know how it’s removed? I’ve got permission from DNO to pull the cutout. But if I need them to come out to remove this then it’s £76 + VAT for what will likely be a 30 sec job!

 

[James]

Agreed, sometimes you just cant do the job you would like to do and it ends up like that.
I agree that technically its in an enclosure requiring a key and therefore single insulation is acceptable its just that most of us don't like it.

I presume the consumer unit end of the swa is properly glanded and the armour is earthed at that end? again, not the way most of us would like to do it but it is compliant unless you want to use the proper materials and workmanship regulation.

 

[Raptor0014]

I would probably have pulled it back and extended it in a Wiska 407 or 607 (use the Wiska earth bars and some 25mm uninsulated butt crimps - double layer of heatshrink - black with a coloured layer on top). And from there, into a galvanised adaptable box with a tails gland and then butt crimp some tails on the end and dispense with the service terminal blocks, 16mm earth bond to the box.

I think the advice from your CPS about it being an enclosure is poor given someone who may not be electrically skilled will have to open the box to read the meter.

Guess you missed the bit where I said it goes out the bottom of the box straight into the building. So not sure how you think you’re manoeuvring about 4” of 25mm SWA to then extend.

A wiska box is rated at max of 57a and I think 407/607 is 40a. So that wouldn’t work, it’s an 80a supply.

Someone who isn’t electrically skilled can also remove the front off a socket. And this often happens far more in DIY than someone opening the cabinet to read the meter and deciding to play with some cables whilst they’re at it.

 

[Raptor0014]

Agreed, sometimes you just cant do the job you would like to do and it ends up like that.
I agree that technically its in an enclosure requiring a key and therefore single insulation is acceptable its just that most of us don't like it.

I presume the consumer unit end of the swa is properly glanded and the armour is earthed at that end? again, not the way most of us would like to do it but it is compliant unless you want to use the proper materials and workmanship regulation.

Yes the other end is glanded properly and also earthed as I did that today when I replaced the CU. I even used a fancy SWA storm gland. Only because I find them a lot nicer to use than the traditional glands. Even if they are ridiculously expensive.

 

[Raptor0014]

Just looking at the pictures again... there may have been enough on the end to mount the galv box diagonally... the armouring is there so it may have been enough. And whilst somewhat unorthodox in terms of the angles involved, I would say that would be preferable to the single insulated conductors.

There is about 1.5-2" of SWA inside the hole. So unless you cut an even bigger hole out the bottom of the cabinet the cable isn't moving. Even mounting on an angle would induce stress on the SWA gland to the box. And it would foul the bottom of the service head if you could manage to get it in.

I spent a good 30 mins or so today weighing up various options. Wiska box I discounted straight away as the amp rating isn't sufficient and I carry various ones including 407 & 607 on the van. I even had one of these 100A SP&N Fused Switch c/w 63A 80A & 100A fuses | Lewden (FS6380100) - https://www.tlc-direct.co.uk/Products/CGFS100.html metal clad SFI, but couldn't fit it in and safely gland the SWA into it.

So this was the most sensible and practical solution without going to the extreme.

 

[pc1966]

I’m not sure how else I could enclose the insulation and allow it to run to the Henley blocks.

While probably not required due to the tool-opening nature, heatshrink sleeving is another option, just be careful not to over-do the heat! Or sometimes just PVC sleeving.

 

[Vortigern]

Think I would have stripped some of that tail (19 strand?) above and put the sheath of it over the red black to cover identification and probably put the henleys lower to have a less diagonal route for the SWA. I assume you bought a tail pack or was it the left overs of another pack?

 

[SparkyChick]

Guess you missed the bit where I said it goes out the bottom of the box straight into the building. So not sure how you think you’re manoeuvring about 4” of 25mm SWA to then extend.

A wiska box is rated at 57a. So that wouldn’t work, it’s an 80a supply.

Someone who isn’t electrically skilled can also remove the front off a socket. And this often happens far more in DIY than someone opening the cabinet to read the meter and deciding to play with some cables whilst they’re at it.

Unless I'm much mistaken , the current rating for Wiska boxes relates specifically to the supplied terminals not the boxes themselves. They play no part in the connections and as such have no current rating. I'm sure there could be an argument about potential temperatures with a high current circuit such as this... the boxes themselves have temperature ratings that typically exceed that of the cable itself along with a substantial voltage rating. They are more than capable of enclosing three 25mm butt crimps. If there is enough heat generated to damage the Wiska box, the cable will already be suffering damage and the insulation may already have failed.

You could argue that about any enclosure we use in a domestic setting, but if a householder chooses to use a tool and open an enclosure, they've made that choice. Someone accessing that box to read the meter has no choice... they have to do it for their job so we should make every effort to ensure it is as safe as it can be. Plus, I'll throw in there that the cables leaving the meter are the responsibility of the home owner. Within the meter cupboard they are perhaps the only thing that specifically has to comply with BS 7671 as if they are the home owners responsibility they fall within our remit, unlike the rest of the equipment/cabling in there. I've had a WPD guy flip his lid on me because I had the audacity to have 1 or 2mm of the single insulated core of the tails visible at the meter (not my doing, I didn't cut the meter seal but he wasn't happy and had me re-terminate it). Those are the reasons I think the advice you received from your CPS is bad. @pc1966 's suggestion of heatshrink is an excellent idea (possibly a couple of layers), or maybe even some flexible conduit into an adaptable box.

I'm not going to argue about the cable and the possibility of jointing it either under the box or even inside the property as I've not seen it, I was just commenting (as we all do here) making some suggestions. I will say this though, for me "straight into" doesn't imply a distance. It could be literally straight through the wall (as you state) or it could drop down a bit first... if it dropped down to the floor and went through the wall, I'd still say "it goes out of the box and straight into the house" meaning it doesn't go anywhere or connect to anything else.

So this was the most sensible and practical solution without going to the extreme.

If 'the extreme' is making the conscious effort to try and ensure everything we do complies with BS 7671, then I'm there for that. Sometimes, the extreme is the right thing to do and if the customer won't entertain that then I don't want to be working for them. We're the ones who have to sign to say it's safe and compliant with BS 7671, not the customer, who'll be the first person in the queue to sue you if something untoward happens.

If you're happy putting your name to it, that's fine, that's your choice. Personally I wouldn't be for the reasons I've outlined. If I was inspecting it, it would be a C2 for basic insulation visible outside an enclosure and as I've implied, if I was expected to do what you've done without being able to properly gland that cable I would never have taken the job on.

 

[timhoward]

Funnily enough I found one of those anti-tamper covers today too!

 

[Raptor0014]

Unless I'm much mistaken , the current rating for Wiska boxes relates specifically to the supplied terminals not the boxes themselves. They play no part in the connections and as such have no current rating. I'm sure there could be an argument about potential temperatures with a high current circuit such as this... the boxes themselves have temperature ratings that typically exceed that of the cable itself along with a substantial voltage rating. They are more than capable of enclosing three 25mm butt crimps. If there is enough heat generated to damage the Wiska box, the cable will already be suffering damage and the insulation may already have failed.

You could argue that about any enclosure we use in a domestic setting, but if a householder chooses to use a tool and open an enclosure, they've made that choice. Someone accessing that box to read the meter has no choice... they have to do it for their job so we should make every effort to ensure it is as safe as it can be. Plus, I'll throw in there that the cables leaving the meter are the responsibility of the home owner. Within the meter cupboard they are perhaps the only thing that specifically has to comply with BS 7671 as if they are the home owners responsibility they fall within our remit, unlike the rest of the equipment/cabling in there. I've had a WPD guy flip his lid on me because I had the audacity to have 1 or 2mm of the single insulated core of the tails visible at the meter (not my doing, I didn't cut the meter seal but he wasn't happy and had me re-terminate it). Those are the reasons I think the advice you received from your CPS is bad. @pc1966 's suggestion of heatshrink is an excellent idea (possibly a couple of layers), or maybe even some flexible conduit into an adaptable box.

I'm not going to argue about the cable and the possibility of jointing it either under the box or even inside the property as I've not seen it, I was just commenting (as we all do here) making some suggestions. I will say this though, for me "straight into" doesn't imply a distance. It could be literally straight through the wall (as you state) or it could drop down a bit first... if it dropped down to the floor and went through the wall, I'd still say "it goes out of the box and straight into the house" meaning it doesn't go anywhere or connect to anything else.



If 'the extreme' is making the conscious effort to try and ensure everything we do complies with BS 7671, then I'm there for that. Sometimes, the extreme is the right thing to do and if the customer won't entertain that then I don't want to be working for them. We're the ones who have to sign to say it's safe and compliant with BS 7671, not the customer, who'll be the first person in the queue to sue you if something untoward happens.

If you're happy putting your name to it, that's fine, that's your choice. Personally I wouldn't be for the reasons I've outlined. If I was inspecting it, it would be a C2 for basic insulation visible outside an enclosure and as I've implied, if I was expected to do what you've done without being able to properly gland that cable I would never have taken the job on.

You could be correct about the rating for the wiska boxes. I generally don’t use them for anything above 40A so never bothered to delve too deeply into it.

I don’t have a pic of how the SWA exits the box. But as I’ve said there is approx 4” to play with as it goes straight into building about 2” under the hole. It then runs within the fabric of the building to the point it comes out at the CU. There is then about a foot of cable which I glanded today into the bottom of the CU.

Unless you remove that cabinet, meter and service head then you’re not getting a gland on that cable. Even then you’re not getting a galvanised box in there.

If you’d C2 it then I guess you don’t understand the regulations like you purport to. It’s not outside an enclosure. It is within an enclosure.

BS7671 defines an enclosure as follows:

A part providing protection of equipment against certain external influences and in any direction providing basic protection

So the meter cabinet can be classed as an enclosure. There is no regulation I'm aware of that states the enclosure must not be able to be accessed by a non-skilled person. Otherwise we’d have security screws on consumer units, sockets and any other electrical accessory you can think of.

Someone opening that cabinet to read the meter is in no more danger.

Whilst I am more than happy to take suggestions, as I am far from perfect and don’t claim to be like some, nor am I averse to having my work scrutinised. But what I do object to is someone trying to claim I have done something potentially dangerous, when I haven’t, and that I haven’t complied with BS7671, when I have.

I am more than happy to stand up in court and defend my actions on this job. If you want to know the reason why I took it on. It was because I new I’d do the job safely and within the clients budget rather than someone who would have left it, much like the person who did in the first place and ran the SWA to the CU circa 5m away and didn’t put a switched fuse in from the start.

I’m more than happy to eat humble pie if you can show me a regulation that states the enclosure can’t be opened by a non-skilled person.

But otherwise I’ll not hold my breath for the apology as you appear to one of those that passes off personal preference as a regulation.

 

[James]

Unless I'm much mistaken , the current rating for Wiska boxes relates specifically to the supplied terminals not the boxes themselves. They play no part in the connections and as such have no current rating. I'm sure there could be an argument about potential temperatures with a high current circuit such as this... the boxes themselves have temperature ratings that typically exceed that of the cable itself along with a substantial voltage rating. They are more than capable of enclosing three 25mm butt crimps. If there is enough heat generated to damage the Wiska box, the cable will already be suffering damage and the insulation may already have failed.

You could argue that about any enclosure we use in a domestic setting, but if a householder chooses to use a tool and open an enclosure, they've made that choice. Someone accessing that box to read the meter has no choice... they have to do it for their job so we should make every effort to ensure it is as safe as it can be. Plus, I'll throw in there that the cables leaving the meter are the responsibility of the home owner. Within the meter cupboard they are perhaps the only thing that specifically has to comply with BS 7671 as if they are the home owners responsibility they fall within our remit, unlike the rest of the equipment/cabling in there. I've had a WPD guy flip his lid on me because I had the audacity to have 1 or 2mm of the single insulated core of the tails visible at the meter (not my doing, I didn't cut the meter seal but he wasn't happy and had me re-terminate it). Those are the reasons I think the advice you received from your CPS is bad. @pc1966 's suggestion of heatshrink is an excellent idea (possibly a couple of layers), or maybe even some flexible conduit into an adaptable box.

I'm not going to argue about the cable and the possibility of jointing it either under the box or even inside the property as I've not seen it, I was just commenting (as we all do here) making some suggestions. I will say this though, for me "straight into" doesn't imply a distance. It could be literally straight through the wall (as you state) or it could drop down a bit first... if it dropped down to the floor and went through the wall, I'd still say "it goes out of the box and straight into the house" meaning it doesn't go anywhere or connect to anything else.



If 'the extreme' is making the conscious effort to try and ensure everything we do complies with BS 7671, then I'm there for that. Sometimes, the extreme is the right thing to do and if the customer won't entertain that then I don't want to be working for them. We're the ones who have to sign to say it's safe and compliant with BS 7671, not the customer, who'll be the first person in the queue to sue you if something untoward happens.

If you're happy putting your name to it, that's fine, that's your choice. Personally I wouldn't be for the reasons I've outlined. If I was inspecting it, it would be a C2 for basic insulation visible outside an enclosure and as I've implied, if I was expected to do what you've done without being able to properly gland that cable I would never have taken the job on.

I think some of your judgement is a bit harsh but, I can't give a technical reason to say it is wrong.

its not an easy situation to be put in and i believe that @Raptor0014 has made a dam good try of making something awful, a lot safer.

I agree that the CPS advice would be wrong if it was exposed i.e. in the under stairs cupboard, it is correct for inside an enclosure though.

a rough job made a lot better, we can all pick fault with others work but i think he has done a good job of making things better.

 

[loz2754]

otherwise I’ll not hold my breath for the apology as you appear to one of those that passes off personal preference as a regulation.

That's not how I read the post.
Sparkychick was offering her suggestions on how she would approach the situation. Not once did she imply that you were in the wrong, therefore no apology necessary.

I happen to agree with her on meter boxes not really being classed as a suitable enclosure, as non skilled persons are expected to access the meter on a regular basis, and often the door is left unlocked, allowing ready access even to small children, and we all know that their little hands like to mess with things they shouldn't!

Sometimes it's a case of doing the best you can with the situation you are presented with, that's true. And we all have differing views on what that entails in any given situation. Which is one of the reasons I come on this forum, to compare.

But, for all of us, it's our name on the certification, and our choice of where to draw the line. You do it your way, I'll do it my way. (Unless I read another way that makes more sense, that is!)

 

[timhoward]

I even used a fancy SWA storm gland

I've yet to try one on those. Interesting that they are easier to use.

I agree that things are safer as the 5-6m of SWA is now at least fused. Sometimes we have to accept "it's safer than before" even if some aspects that aren't exactly right stay the same.

I would pick up some heat shrink if I were you - it's cheap and very handy when you have to crimp 10mm connections.
The only other ideas I had were expensive and a right faff - either some 32mm Kopex onto a galv box or some galv conduit oversleeving it.

But, for all of us, it's our name on the certification, and our choice of where to draw the line. You do it your way, I'll do it my way. (Unless I read another way that makes more sense, that is!)

Well said!

 

[littlespark]

For reference…. Did you try and see how it all goes together when the fuse is removed?

I’ve seen one somewhere but it looked like it was just a cover over the tails… like it would simply slide out if the meter was removed.

 

[Raptor0014]

For reference…. Did you try and see how it all goes together when the fuse is removed?

I’ve seen one somewhere but it looked like it was just a cover over the tails… like it would simply slide out if the meter was removed.

I couldn’t see any obvious way it was attached with the cutout removed.

I think it must require the meter removal as per Sparky Chicks earlier post.

 

[swaRRR]

What were the two removed sections of T+E doing?