APPRENTICES

[Pete999]

Not a dig at anyone, more of a genuine enquiry, before anyone gets it into their heads that I'm having a dig, It's not my intension, OK.

During my time the Forum, I have become more confused between "A Trainee Electrician and an Apprentice Electrician" what is the difference between the two?

Many time I have seen, as an example a 25+ year old looking for an Apprenticeship, apart from the low pay to start with, how do these Apprenticeships work? how long are they Apprenticed for? do firms still get help from HMG for employing an Apprentice of any age?

Like I stressed at the start, this is a genuine question, all very different from when many of us "Oldies" started out.
Grateful for any replies.

Hope this is in the right area for my question.

 

[richy3333]

My apprentice has been doing work unsupervised for a long time. You just have to choose the work depending upon their skill level. In the last couple of weeks he’s screwed up the lighting in a new build house, second fixing but also did great work with cctv in a commercial environment

 

[HexHex]

Just to clarify this point...

Do trainees do the same then? as I have difficulty distinguishing Apprentice Electricians from Trainees Electricians, I get the impression that a Trainee Electrician, is someone that just does a short course

Some trainees do the same, but instead of day release to college they do nights, mostly self funded but still 3 years college followed by portfolio building on site for their level 3 and AM2. This is the route some people do who cant get an apprenticeship but this route is still seen as 'Time served'

Then you have the trainees who do the short course route

You can get bad and good electricians from any of them groups but obviously the short course route for someone who knows very little to start with will leave them with massive gaps in their knowledge to do the job of an electrician (IMO)

 

[littlespark]

My apprentice has been doing work unsupervised for a long time. You just have to choose the work depending upon their skill level. In the last couple of weeks he’s screwed up the lighting in a new build house, second fixing but also did great work with cctv in a commercial environment

Oh do tell!
how did he screw it up? Bathroom switch turns on living room light?

 

[Zerax]

My personal view... is that the whole system of electrician training needs to be scrapped and started again. It's a system that is partly stuck in the past, but has modern changes made to it. It's a system that both ensures competence and allows incompetence.

I think we should have a simple series of theoretical 'papers' that need to be studied and passed... that is accompanied by a simple series of practical tests/challenges. The papers becoming progressively more complex/challenging. Regular changes of course numbering should be outlawed to avoid confusions. Textbooks should be available for each 'paper' allowing easy study and exam centres should be available to be booked by individuals.

Prior learning should allow exemptions as required.

You only have to see the constant stream of training queries on this illustrious forum to see that there's widespread confusion out there.

 

[Pete999]

My understanding is there isn't a great deal of difference in the end result

Both need to complete NVQ Level 3, AM2 and current wiring regs before they get their gold card and official status as an Electrician which is what most companies look for

As for being allowed to be let loose on the public, this has always been a grey area because you only need to be "Competent" and so you get a lot of people who fall in this category without going down the usual route of "Time served" but struggle to find site or employed work and so work for themselves

My "let loose" was a bit tongue in cheek, what I meant was when will the two types of learners be deemed competent enough to allow them to work alone, for themselves etc, because that seems to be the aim of many a person undertaking work either as a Trainee or an Apprentice.

To my mind there seems to be very little difference between the two types as both need to complete NVQ Eevel3, and AM3 why the difference?

I ask is it just that a person who is a Trainee, is someone that couldn't, can't or can't be bothered to wait for an Apprenticeship opportunity to come along, whereas if you are Apprenticed you need to be prepared to work for someone that is prepared to keep you on their books, for the 4 years.

A Trainee on the other hand can flit from job to job, as long as he/she adheres to the JIB training rules, gaining formal Qualifications from short training courses. Who supervises the Trainees. is it just as long as they complete the Portfolio?

Is this a result of people deciding to change careers, not knowing what their aim in life is? or a general lack of respect for Tradespersons, " Oh I know I fancy being an Electrician. Plumber or whatever" just because I'm fed up with my lot at this time in my life.

Sorry for all the questions, you know I am "Old School" I am genuinely interested, as many of the "Apprentices" at my last and only job were not Apprenticed as Electricians, they did what I can only describe as to be a good "Technician" the ultimate aim was to take up a posting as a Tech in a UK Mission overseas somewhere, with the Electrician bit as an add on skill, don't get me wrong the Apprenticeships were good and wide ranging, just seems odd that these Guys would do just 6 months or so in the Electrical arena, gaining their qualifications at the end of their training,

I guess the ultimate question from me is "has the Apprentice route taken a nosedive to the bottom?" like I said I'm not having a dig, at my age I ain't going to change anything or light any fires under anyone's pants, just seems watered down and alien to someone that had to do 6 years as an Apprentice 6 months probation prior to starting, and 6 months as an Improver at the end, then getting your cards and told to move on, mind you jobs weren't as hard to come by as today.

 

[gazdkw82]

I was put on an apprenticeship framework through my works. I already had level 2 so I did 18 months of the level 3 framework and the AM2s.

Even though I was on the apprenticeship framework and most of the students on my course where apprentices, I was not classed as one.

There is an agreement of pay between the colleges and employer to pay apprentices. Not sure on the exact workings, but I'm sure the employer pays the college and the college pay a set rate to the apprentice.

I was directly.employed by my employer and placed on a framework. I think I would class myself at that time, as a trainee. Not an apprentice.

 

[Pete999]

I was put on an apprenticeship framework through my works. I already had level 2 so I did 18 months of the level 3 framework and the AM2s.

Even though I was on the apprenticeship framework and most of the students on my course where apprentices, I was not classed as one.

There is an agreement of pay between the colleges and employer to pay apprentices. Not sure on the exact workings, but I'm sure the employer pays the college and the college pay a set rate to the apprentice.

I was directly.employed by my employer and placed on a framework. I think I would class myself at that time, as a trainee. Not an apprentice.

Thanks for info Gaz

 

[Zerax]

My "let loose" was a bit tongue in cheek, what I meant was when will the two types of learners be deemed competent enough to allow them to work alone, for themselves etc, because that seems to be the aim of many a person undertaking work either as a Trainee or an Apprentice.

I think you're trying to find an answer that doesn't exist. Firstly, everyone is different... and I know that in the modern world we're all supposed to be homogenous... but we all know we're not.

So you could get two people with identical quals & experience, but one you trust to get on with stuff and the other not.

Secondly, who is it that is 'deeming' anyone to be 'competent' ? Is it the colleges who pass or fail candidates ? Is it merely a time-based issue ? Is it you ? I dunno...

 

[Pete999]

I think you're trying to find an answer that doesn't exist. Firstly, everyone is different... and I know that in the modern world we're all supposed to be homogenous... but we all know we're not.

So you could get two people with identical quals & experience, but one you trust to get on with stuff and the other not.

Secondly, who is it that is 'deeming' anyone to be 'competent' ? Is it the colleges who pass or fail candidates ? Is it merely a time-based issue ? Is it you ? I dunno...

No, neither do I.