Blowing sockets and popping RCD

[Josh555]

A client asked me to add two sockets in their bedroom

I took power from two sockets in the lounge which is behind the bedroom wall.

I ran a cable out of each socket for the new socket

The problem is it now is tripping the RCD and blowing the old Existing sockets and light switches

But the new sockets I added still work fine

The old existing sockets and switche are blown and unusable

When I try to reset the RCD It pops and Sparks down

Any idea to why this is happending

 

[Josh555]

And you have only disconnected your socket outlets but the new cables are still live and in place.

The new sockets are still in place but the cable going from the new sockets to the old ones has been disconnected

 

[Josh555]

And you have only disconnected your socket outlets but the new cables are still live and in place.

So basically it's all back to its old setup and working fine

 

[westward10]

Well I suggest your 'client' now employs a competent electrician and you hold your hands up and walk away.

 

[Josh555]

Well I suggest your 'client' now employs a competent electrician and you hold your hands up and walk away.

 

[mattg4321]

You really need to be doing some IR testing to solve this. It sounds pretty basic and should be easy to get to the bottom of with the right test equipment. Can you get someone you work with to help? Someone with proper test equipment. A £10 Kewtech socket tester doesn’t count!!

 

[Josh555]

You really need to be doing some IR testing to solve this. It sounds pretty basic and should be easy to get to the bottom of with the right test equipment. Can you get someone you work with to help? Someone with proper test equipment. A £10 Kewtech socket tester doesn’t count!!

I will have a go at this tommorow I have megger testers

 

[Grant1987]

I will have a go at this tommorow I have megger testers

Josh, please ask a competent/skilled person to come and assist you. You should not be touching a megger without the knowledge or experience. Or in this instance carrying out installation work. Please please get help with this because it will come back to bite you.

 

[littlespark]

I don’t understand why a light switch is now sparking? (#1) You didn’t touch that circuit.

You’ve removed old sockets, and the fault is gone… so is there something wrong with the old sockets?
Just the act of disconnecting them to add another cable could cause damage internally if they were seized up when you took them off.

When you go back, disconnect the circuit from the mcb and IR test the cables… then connect up the sockets, old and new and test again.
You should know the difference between a ‘good’ reading and a ‘bad’ reading.

Only when you are satisfied with good IR results do you energise the circuit.

Let us know how you get on, and perhaps ask @Dan or @Lou for access to trainee section.

Then answers to your questions will be better catered for your level.

Admittedly, I read the first post, and instantly thought ‘out of depth handyman’ but later posts stated you were trainee.

I would repeat my colleagues that you should still have a qualified tradesman supervising. Your company shouldn’t be letting you do jobs on your own yet.

 

[marineboytim]

And you have only disconnected your socket outlets but the new cables are still live and in place.

Damn this is getting interesting, I'm waiting for his continuity, IR, Zs and RCD readings using the new x1 AC test now amendment 2 has been published. I also can't wait to find out if the 'client' gets his minor works cert. More importantly, did it get fixed and what the problem was

 

[Grant1987]

Damn this is getting interesting, I'm waiting for his continuity, IR, Zs and RCD readings using the new x1 AC test now amendment 2 has been published. I also can't wait to find out if the 'client' gets his minor works cert. More importantly, did it get fixed and what the problem was

I think he is out of his depth and probably doesn’t have a clue what your message is all about. This is the dangers of knowing a little but not a lot.

 

[littlespark]

Pack it in, it’s the weekend for goodness sake.

It’s been confirmed the OP is a trainee, and doesn’t know everything yet.

Any negative comments should be aimed at his company sending him out on his own, rather than himself.

 

[Grant1987]

An apprentice of 2½ years experience doesn't make mistakes like this and your post reflects your lack of experience if you consider 2 - 3 way switching 10x harder than fitting a couple of sockets then your breath of experience is very shallow. Doing DB / CU upgrades requires an amount of testing to be carried out and the issuing of the appropriate certification all of which should assist you in finding the fault in this instance

Attitude is everything and yours stinks no wonder it appears you have learnt very little in 2½ years

You clearly have made a mistake which is why you are on here and the reason you are on here is you have not got the face to speak with the electricians you work with for their assistance or if you have it would appear they have little no more experience than you are currently demonstrating
It is pointless getting arsey when asked reasonable questions by those members who are trying to help you it is very easy to install anything it is a lot harder to fault find why it all went wrong, fault finding is an analytical process of identifying why it all went wrong and that process can and frequently does mean you have to carry out the appropriate testing and this forum is not some magical chrystal ball that can advise on the problem without some clarity and feedback on what you have or haven't done

Our advice to you josh is although it may seem a bit harsh, we do not want you to cause harm to yourself or more importantly your client. You don’t play electrics or gas but you can play paint or plastering. I appreciate your coming on this forum for advice because your stuck, come clean and ask your employer for help. Walk before you run

 

[Grant1987]

Pack it in, it’s the weekend for goodness sake.

It’s been confirmed the OP is a trainee, and doesn’t know everything yet.

Any negative comments should be aimed at his company sending him out on his own, rather than himself.

Yes but the trainee needs to realise the risks involved regardless if it’s weekend or not. You can’t potch about with electrics unless your superior feels your able to. Although the crash course sparks worry me

 

[Alan-N]

no the actual sockets sparked and blew in front of me
The mcb never tripped once only the RCD

Sounds to me like you have reversed L & E or N & E
OR you're just here to wind people up, cos clearly you shouldn't have been doing what you were doing

 

[Josh555]

Sounds to me like you have reversed L & E or N & E
OR you're just here to wind people up, cos clearly you shouldn't have been doing what you were doing

No they were not reversed I checked my connections like I said. I also used my socket tester before I left which shows if all cables are in the correct terminals

 

[littlespark]

Did you go back this morning to see what had happened?

 

[telectrix]

No they were not reversed I checked my connections like I said. I also used my socket tester before I left which shows if all cables are in the correct terminals

in an earlier post you said that the old sockets were removed and the circuit "worked". This suggests a problem with said sockets.

 

[Josh555]

in an earlier post you said that the old sockets were removed and the circuit "worked". This suggests a problem with said sockets.

To be honest they were quite old sockets so maybe they were faulty

 

[Josh555]

red to brown, green to green, blue to bits.

Yes but the trainee needs to realise the risks involved regardless if it’s weekend or not. You can’t potch about with electrics unless your superior feels your able to. Although the crash course sparks worry me

My superior does feel am able to like I said I can do much more complex tasks than running a 30cm 2.5 out of one socket into another. Also this was a private job nothing to do with my company

 

[Risteard]

Pack it in, it’s the weekend for goodness sake.

It’s been confirmed the OP is a trainee, and doesn’t know everything yet.

Any negative comments should be aimed at his company sending him out on his own, rather than himself.

My understanding of this is that the company didn't send him out to do this job, but rather that it is being done as a "nixer". Apologies in advance if I have misunderstood.

 

[Josh555]

My understanding of this is that the company didn't send him out to do this job, but rather that it is being done as a "nixer". Apologies in advance if I have misunderstood.

You are correct

 

[Alan-N]

No they were not reversed I checked my connections like I said. I also used my socket tester before I left which shows if all cables are in the correct terminals

Well you have a line to cpc or neutral to cpc short which is why the RCD is kicking in before the MCB, if you don't have a cable in the wrong connector, then check around the metal back box, did you catch a wire when you put the socket screw back in, or was there a cut in insulation that has now touched the box

 

[Josh555]

Well you have a line to cpc or neutral to cpc short which is why the RCD is kicking in before the MCB, if you don't have a cable in the wrong connector, then check around the metal back box, did you catch a wire when you put the socket screw back in, or was there a cut in insulation that has now touched the box

Will have a look at this next time I go thanks for the help

 

[Lister1987]

Well you have a line to cpc or neutral to cpc short which is why the RCD is kicking in before the MCB, if you don't have a cable in the wrong connector, then check around the metal back box, did you catch a wire when you put the socket screw back in, or was there a cut in insulation that has now touched the box

I was waiting for a comment like this, OP should get to know what devices operate when and why; with the RCD going off before/insert of the MÇB he ought to know straight away he's looking for a fault to earth.

 

[westward10]

Can we keep this friendly trading insults is not helping in any way.

 

[Alan-N]

Right let's start from basics Josh, your original post is a bit confusing and throwing in things like "sparking down" and "blowing" didn't help others to sympathize with your situation.

It sounds like you added 2 sockets by spurring off a ring in 2 places, 1 spur per new socket, and you didn't extend the ring

It's not clear if your subsequent issues came from 1 or both of the old sockets. let's assume just the 1 as 2 would be more than bad luck

I believe you now have the new sockets operational with no more tripping the RCD, and you have achieved that be removing the old sockets and using wago connectors. Again not sure if that's both of them or just the 1

So if this is correct then the fault which is almost certainly a short to earth (or cpc if you prefer) is very likely to be one of your conductors was shorting against the metal backbox , although your description suggested it was shorting inside the socket itself which is why I asked if you had inadvertently used the wrong connections to the socket. If you are used to using only the same type over and over, then you need to always double-check you get them right as not all sockets are set out the same.

Your next step should be to go back with 2 new sockets to replace your wago's BUT carefully check ALL the conductors for any damage and take with you some sleeving (all 3 colours) to make good any cuts in the insulation, pay attention to areas around the knockouts and ensure all grommets are in place. Even if there were no grommets fitted, it is now your responsibility to fit them. Also check for damage where the socket screws might have cut in when you tightened them up

New sockets and proper insulation should solve your issue if its working with wago's

Testing is important, I'm not going to preach, but at the least you want to check you have a decent Zs at all 4. A socket tester is a handy tool, but shouldn't be an alternative to proper testing.

You will learn from this , but if you genuinely want help again be humble. State upfront your in training and need advise, and be precise in how you present your issue.

Good luck

 

[Josh555]

Right let's start from basics Josh, your original post is a bit confusing and throwing in things like "sparking down" and "blowing" didn't help others to sympathize with your situation.

It sounds like you added 2 sockets by spurring off a ring in 2 places, 1 spur per new socket, and you didn't extend the ring

It's not clear if your subsequent issues came from 1 or both of the old sockets. let's assume just the 1 as 2 would be more than bad luck

I believe you now have the new sockets operational with no more tripping the RCD, and you have achieved that be removing the old sockets and using wago connectors. Again not sure if that's both of them or just the 1

So if this is correct then the fault which is almost certainly a short to earth (or cpc if you prefer) is very likely to be one of your conductors was shorting against the metal backbox , although your description suggested it was shorting inside the socket itself which is why I asked if you had inadvertently used the wrong connections to the socket. If you are used to using only the same type over and over, then you need to always double-check you get them right as not all sockets are set out the same.

Your next step should be to go back with 2 new sockets to replace your wago's BUT carefully check ALL the conductors for any damage and take with you some sleeving (all 3 colours) to make good any cuts in the insulation, pay attention to areas around the knockouts and ensure all grommets are in place. Even if there were no grommets fitted, it is now your responsibility to fit them. Also check for damage where the socket screws might have cut in when you tightened them up

New sockets and proper insulation should solve your issue if its working with wago's

Testing is important, I'm not going to preach, but at the least you want to check you have a decent Zs at all 4. A socket tester is a handy tool, but shouldn't be an alternative to proper testing.

You will learn from this , but if you genuinely want help again be humble. State upfront your in training and need advise, and be precise in how you present your issue.

Good luck

Thank you very much.
Much appreciated, I will take this on board
Have a wonderful day

 

[Risteard]

Right let's start from basics Josh, your original post is a bit confusing and throwing in things like "sparking down" and "blowing" didn't help others to sympathize with your situation.

It sounds like you added 2 sockets by spurring off a ring in 2 places, 1 spur per new socket, and you didn't extend the ring

It's not clear if your subsequent issues came from 1 or both of the old sockets. let's assume just the 1 as 2 would be more than bad luck

I believe you now have the new sockets operational with no more tripping the RCD, and you have achieved that be removing the old sockets and using wago connectors. Again not sure if that's both of them or just the 1

So if this is correct then the fault which is almost certainly a short to earth (or cpc if you prefer) is very likely to be one of your conductors was shorting against the metal backbox , although your description suggested it was shorting inside the socket itself which is why I asked if you had inadvertently used the wrong connections to the socket. If you are used to using only the same type over and over, then you need to always double-check you get them right as not all sockets are set out the same.

Your next step should be to go back with 2 new sockets to replace your wago's BUT carefully check ALL the conductors for any damage and take with you some sleeving (all 3 colours) to make good any cuts in the insulation, pay attention to areas around the knockouts and ensure all grommets are in place. Even if there were no grommets fitted, it is now your responsibility to fit them. Also check for damage where the socket screws might have cut in when you tightened them up

New sockets and proper insulation should solve your issue if its working with wago's

Testing is important, I'm not going to preach, but at the least you want to check you have a decent Zs at all 4. A socket tester is a handy tool, but shouldn't be an alternative to proper testing.

You will learn from this , but if you genuinely want help again be humble. State upfront your in training and need advise, and be precise in how you present your issue.

Good luck

Shouldn't really use sleeving to repair damaged insulation as it's only for identification purposes and isn't rated for any insulating properties.

 

[123]

Looks like that consumer unit (post #3) was changed last March - and what a state it looks. 63A up front RCD with Shower (32A MCB, hmmm), Panel Heater, Cooker and then all the rest of the house on it. Not that familiar with Wylex but that RCD looks a fair bit older than the rest of the board (can't recall the last time I got a type AC from wholesalers)

 

[ipf]

Looks like that consumer unit (post #3) was changed last March - and what a state it looks. 63A up front RCD with Shower (32A MCB, hmmm), Panel Heater, Cooker and then all the rest of the house on it. Not that familiar with Wylex but that RCD looks a fair bit older than the rest of the board (can't recall the last time I got a type AC from wholesalers)

Yeah, no main switch, even, let alone RCD separation. Looks like touching the job was asking for trouble, especially for someone so inexperienced.
Thought it was the type A incomer these days. Generally use them for garage units.

 

[goasis]

Come on then @Josh555 ... you got some grief over the weekend, have you been back to sort this yet? What was it?

 

[Grant1987]

Come on then @Josh555 ... you got some grief over the weekend, have you been back to sort this yet? What was it?

I think he we might have hit a nerve with josh. Although we do come across as being harsh it’s with good intentions. If he reads through Alan-N’s post step by step he will have sorted the fault. Anyhow I hope you don’t get put off josh but the guys/gals on here can be ruthless at times (speaking from prior experience) but will always try to help a fellow tradesman

 

[7029 dave]

Just looked at this thread and all the posts, the OP is clearly out of his depth and should not be taking on jobs unless supervised.
No testing, not using the correct terminology. I would have thought with over 2years experience the OP would be at a higher level of experience.
Fair play to @Alan-N trying to assist but step by step coaching from the key board!!
These might be harsh words but I am only trying to make the OP realise electricity is dangerous, with what he described lucky there was not a fire.

 

[Josh555]

Just looked at this thread and all the posts, the OP is clearly out of his depth and should not be taking on jobs unless supervised.
No testing, not using the correct terminology. I would have thought with over 2years experience the OP would be at a higher level of experience.
Fair play to @Alan-N trying to assist but step by step coaching from the key board!!
These might be harsh words but I am only trying to make the OP realise electricity is dangerous, with what he described lucky there was not a fire.

Don’t know how not using the correct terminology shows a level of experience but ok. Please don’t assume because someone doesn’t use correct terminology they are inexperienced you never know the causes And by the way a lot of electricians don’t carry out testing before carrying out minor works. Only spuring of two double sockets

I have carried out much more complex task unsupervised

And by the way a reply too @goasis the problem was a debris in the terminals of the old sockets. a lot of plaster dust from the plasterer as they were doing the place up

 

[7029 dave]

Don’t know how not using the correct terminology shows a level of experience but ok. And by the way a lot of electricians don’t carry out testing before carrying out minor works. Only spuring of two double sockets

I have carried out much more complex task unsupervised

And by the way a reply too @goasis the problem was a debris in the terminals of the old sockets.

OK (by the way) crack on.
You dont have to tell me my business fella been at this game 42years.

 

[Lister1987]

Don’t know how not using the correct terminology shows a level of experience but ok.

A conscientious tradesperson, when talking to others in same trade, ought to be using the correct terms a) to avoid confusion and misinterpretion, b) to demonstrate understanding and c) because it's professional. Not knowing the vernacular can be a quickfire indication that a person may not know how to walk before they start running. You could say its just being anally retentive but wherever you are in your learning journey, it's vital to use the correct vernacular.

And by the way a lot of electricians don’t carry out testing before carrying out minor works. Only spuring of two double sockets

Just because that's how they do it, doesn't mean it's correct. There is a reason that the sequence of tests appear in the order they do.

Many electricians will no doubt have stories of times they didn't check the health of an installation prior to undertaking work, only be have a horrific time with the installation because things snowballed.

132.16 - No addition or alteration, temporary or permanent, shall be made to an existing installation, unless it has been ascertained that the rating and the condition of any existing equipment, including that of the distributor, will be adequate for the altered circumstances. Furthermore, the earthing and bonding arrangements, if necessary for the protective measure applied for the safety of the addition or alteration, shall be adequate.

Which leads nicely into 134.1.1 -
Good workmanship by one or more skilled or instructed persons and proper materials shall be used in the erection of the electrical installation. The installation of electrical equipment shall take account of manufacturers' instructions.

How can one claim good workmanship if they've not checked before undertaking the work?

As much as I hate religious teachings; "The foolish man built his house upon the sand" , Don't ask where it comes from, it just fits with the point

 

[Josh555]

A conscientious tradesperson, when talking to others in same trade, ought to be using the correct terms a) to avoid confusion and misinterpretion, b) to demonstrate understanding and c) because it's professional. Not knowing the vernacular can be a quickfire indication that a person may not know how to walk before they start running. You could say its just being anally retentive but wherever you are in your learning journey, it's vital to use the correct vernacular.


Just because that's how they do it, doesn't mean it's correct. There is a reason that the sequence of tests appear in the order they do.

Many electricians will no doubt have stories of times they didn't check the health of an installation prior to undertaking work, only be have a horrific time with the installation because things snowballed.

132.16 - No addition or alteration, temporary or permanent, shall be made to an existing installation, unless it has been ascertained that the rating and the condition of any existing equipment, including that of the distributor, will be adequate for the altered circumstances. Furthermore, the earthing and bonding arrangements, if necessary for the protective measure applied for the safety of the addition or alteration, shall be adequate.

Which leads nicely into 134.1.1 -
Good workmanship by one or more skilled or instructed persons and proper materials shall be used in the erection of the electrical installation. The installation of electrical equipment shall take account of manufacturers' instructions.

How can one claim good workmanship if they've not checked before undertaking the work?

As much as I hate religious teachings; "The foolish man built his house upon the sand" , Don't ask where it comes from, it just fits with the point

Fare enough just not used to testing before carrying out work. Will think about this moving forward

 

[Josh555]

OK (by the way) crack on.
You dont have to tell me my business fella been at this game 42years.

 

[7029 dave]

As much as I hate religious teachings; "The foolish man built his house upon the sand" , Don't ask where it comes from, it just fits with the point
And as the rain came tumbling down the foolish mans house is washed away.

 

[Grant1987]

Fare enough just not used to testing before carrying out work. Will think about this moving forward

Take it on the chin josh, however do not be afraid to write on here at any time. Like I said In previous post, I’ve been through similar scenario as yourself but I’ve always respected the views and advice from the seniors on here or juniors and learnt a great deal. It’s a great forum to broaden your knowledge so stick at it